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This is my local area:

11 bicyclists hurt in collision with SUV
A pack of bicyclists collided with a vehicle in Kendale Lakes, seriously injuring two riders and hurting nine others.

Posted on Wed, Aug. 29, 2007


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ANDREW ULOZA/FOR THE MIAMI HERALD


An officer works and injured bicyclists commiserate at the scene Tuesday in Kendale Lakes
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Bicyclists riding at least 30 mph were unable to avoid a vehicle that pulled into their path Tuesday evening on a Kendale Lakes roadway, leaving two riders critically injured and hurting several others.
<!-- END /pubsys/production/story/story_assets.comp --> ''The impact created a real domino effect,'' said Miami-Dade fire-rescue Lt. Shanti Hall. ``The front of the pack is what hit the car, and then everyone behind them piled on top.''


Rescuers set up a triage area on Kendale Lakes Circle, a looping trail along the Miccosukee Golf and Country Club, to assess the multiple casualties. Besides the two bicyclists who were flown to Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center in Miami, five others were taken to area hospitals and four were treated at the scene, Hall said.
Ramon Joa avoided serious injury, but said it was ''devastating'' to watch his fellow riders get mangled in the crash. He said there were about 40 riders in the group.


''There were cyclists flying all over, the glass of the car flying all over,'' Joa told Miami Herald news partner WFOR-CBS4. ``One of the riders, his hand was pinned underneath the tire of the car.''
The bicycle group rides along the four-mile Kendale Lakes Circle loop about five nights a week, according to neighborhood residents and some of the bicyclists. They use the course for race training, often hitting speeds of 30 to 35 mph.


''They usually get together around 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, and they ride hard,'' said Miami attorney Lee Marks, a bike enthusiast who has been on rides with the Kendale Lakes group. ``We're talking high-intensity training.''
The pack was riding west on Southwest 62nd Street -- Kendale Lakes Circle -- when a driver pulled out of an apartment-complex driveway onto the roadway about 5:30 p.m., said Miami-Dade police Detective Alvaro Zabaleta.


The driver failed to yield the right of way to the bicyclists, causing them to slam into the small sport utility vehicle, Zabaleta said. Traffic homicide detectives are investigating the incident and had not filed any citations or charges Tuesday. The driver's name was not released.
Neighborhood residents said it's possible the driver's view of the roadway was obstructed by a row of cars parked in the street's bike lane. The cars have been parked there during renovations to the apartment complex's parking lot.


The two most seriously injured cyclists were in critical but stable condition late Tuesday, Zabaleta said.
Beker Esteban, who lives across the street from the site of the crash, said he sees the bicyclists riding their thin-wheeled racing bikes and wearing bright-colored jerseys almost every day.
''I've been here since '95, and back then they used to come in groups of 10, 15 people,'' Esteban said. ``But now it's dozens of them, and they fly through the streets.


''This is not a safe place to ride a bike at high speeds,'' he added. ``It makes it dangerous for everybody.''
Bicycle groups -- both recreational and racing -- organize rides in various parts of Miami-Dade County. Many ride at off-peak driving times so the roads are less busy. At least two cities, Coral Gables and Miami Beach, offer police-escorted bike rides once a month.
Cyclists ride together for safety, Marks said.
''Drivers typically pay more attention if you're riding in a group,'' Marks said. ``They slow down and pass safely. If you're riding alone, cars just overtake you and zoom past.''


Florida passed a law last year that makes it illegal for drivers to pass bicyclists with less than three feet of space between them. A push for the law came after cyclist Omar Otaola was struck and killed by a truck in Key Biscayne in February 2006.


The past two years, members of the Everglades Bike Club helped organize a Ride of Silence in Miami-Dade to urge improved safety for riders, and Coral Gables has hosted a number of town-hall meetings in recent years to educate riders and motorists about sharing the roads.
A fatal crash involving a bicyclist happened in May 2002 in the same neighborhood as Tuesday's incident. Miami firefighter Jose A. Menendez Jr., a father of three, was killed when he was riding his bike along Kendale Lakes Drive and crashed into a parked landscaping truck. That road loops around the outside of the golf course, while the site of Tuesday's crash was on an interior road.

Miami Herald staff writer David Smiley and WFOR-CBS4 reporter Natalia Zea contributed to this report.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I know the area and it's a great place to ride a short litle course and I have seen these group rides.

Now my question is....

This is a residential aera and the posted speed limit in 30 MPH. Should these guys be riding ovewr the speed limit? I know cars do but that means they are breaking the law. That means the group is as well and could acutally get a ticket.

How do you guys feel with things like this?

They are a few gropus here small and large that ride the main area in Miami and have no regard for the rules of the road. Blowing though lights (because there is a large pack and they think it's their right so they don't have to un-clip. Even having a guy on a scotter block and hold traffic up.), stop sign, cutting off cars, not yelding, etc which anger local and drivers out there even more and puts everyone in harms way.

I can't tell you how many times I over hear stuff like this from non-cyclists.

Thes are NOT police escorted rides or rides with permits.

Yes, I do go through stop signs/light when the road is EMPTY and I am not hindering traffic.

Yep, drivers do the same things as well. But when they collied it's two cars. Not you on a bike. They are more likley to scare a bike off the road than another car as well.
 

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DIRT BOY said:
I know the area and it's a great place to ride a short litle course and I have seen these group rides.

Now my question is....

This is a residential aera and the posted speed limit in 30 MPH. Should these guys be riding ovewr the speed limit? I know cars do but that means they are breaking the law. That means the group is as well and could acutally get a ticket.

How do you guys feel with things like this?

They are a few gropus here small and large that ride the main area in Miami and have no regard for the rules of the road. Blowing though lights (because there is a large pack and they think it's their right so they don't have to un-clip. Even having a guy on a scotter block and hold traffic up.), stop sign, cutting off cars, not yelding, etc which anger local and drivers out there even more and puts everyone in harms way.

I
Well, stuff happens. This is the risk we take.

When speeding through the neighborhoods on group rides, I try to be *always* aware of a car backing out of a driveway because they might not see us and at least call it out ("car right"), or if I'm ahead, I'll point the car out for people behind (and maybe the driver will notice).
 

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DIRT BOY said:
I know the area and it's a great place to ride a short litle course and I have seen these group rides.

Now my question is....

This is a residential aera and the posted speed limit in 30 MPH. Should these guys be riding ovewr the speed limit? I know cars do but that means they are breaking the law. That means the group is as well and could acutally get a ticket.

How do you guys feel with things like this?

They are a few gropus here small and large that ride the main area in Miami and have no regard for the rules of the road. Blowing though lights (because there is a large pack and they think it's their right so they don't have to un-clip. Even having a guy on a scotter block and hold traffic up.), stop sign, cutting off cars, not yelding, etc which anger local and drivers out there even more and puts everyone in harms way.

I can't tell you how many times I over hear stuff like this from non-cyclists.

Thes are NOT police escorted rides or rides with permits.

Yes, I do go through stop signs/light when the road is EMPTY and I am not hindering traffic.

Yep, drivers do the same things as well. But when they collied it's two cars. Not you on a bike. They are more likley to scare a bike off the road than another car as well.

are you serious about the speed limit comment you made? if so, how would you prove the speed? also , if they were running , not biking, would they need a permit? since when does biking in a group require escort or permits?
 

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Besides speeding there could also be tailgating/reckless driving, riding more than 2 abreast and maybe a few others that could be cited. Residential areas are a nightmare. Imagine if they hit and killed some rugrat who ran out in the street chasing his brain or something.
 

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FWIW

Interesting question, I know a guy on campus that has gotten a speeding ticket. 25 in a 20. The school cops are very picky about these things.

But in all reality if vehicles are to respect the laws and common courtesies regarding bikes, I believe the least we can do is to obey traffic/ speed laws and show courtesy back to the drivers.

Yes it is dangerous to ride in higher traffic areas and we do know everytime we go out we are taking a chance, but we do have every bit as much of a right to the road as motor vehicles do.
 

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I doubt they were doing 35. More like 25. Seems like the culprit is illegally parked vehicles obstructing views. Happens all the time. Cars can't even see anything pulling out the driveway unless they poke halfway through the street.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
blacklabel said:
are you serious about the speed limit comment you made? if so, how would you prove the speed? also , if they were running , not biking, would they need a permit? since when does biking in a group require escort or permits?
I have had Coral Gables Police clock me once for doing 32 in a 30 zone. He told me to slow down with his hands as it was a speed trap.

If they told the officers during they investigation that they were going over the speed limit, this would not help their case. Someone computer could also be checked to verify speeds. If they are speeding, they are guilty as well and might have been the cause of an accident as well.

Some these rides are so well orginzied, they litlerly take over the street and hogging two lanes acting if they own the road. They expcet everyone to clear out of their way at times.
What I menat was they did NOT have a permot to close down the streets.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
tcruse11 said:
But in all reality if vehicles are to respect the laws and common courtesies regarding bikes, I believe the least we can do is to obey traffic/ speed laws and show courtesy back to the drivers.
BINGO!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
moabbiker said:
I doubt they were doing 35. More like 25
.
They could go that fast in a big group. And do.

Seems like the culprit is illegally parked vehicles obstructing views. Happens all the time. Cars can't even see anything pulling out the driveway unless they poke halfway through the street.
More reason to be careful. I also hope very car gets a ticket! :mad:
 

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When I was riding in Virginia Beach, it was not unusual for the group to go faster than 30 mph. It isn't that hard in a large group, especially with a little breeze behind you. Sprints on Great Neck Rd would be in the mid to upper 30's since they usually started at 30 mph. One of the neighborhoods we rode through sent a rep to our preride group to ask us to keep our speed down to 15 mph in their neighborhood. The posted limit was 25 mph. We asked him what speed the cars were limited to and didn't seem to understand the question. If I am stopped for speeding in a 25 zone while riding, then I deserve the ticket.
 

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DIRT BOY said:
If they are speeding, they are guilty as well and might have been the cause of an accident as well.
I agree that bike riders need to be held to the same laws we expect auto drivers to obey, but saying that if they happen to be doing 32-35 in a 30 zone, they might have been the cause of the accident is flat out wrong. The woman in the car drove out of the driveway/parking lot without regard for a herd of bikes (a.k.a. TRAFFIC) coming from her left. If those bikes had been a dump truck, the outcome would have been quite different for the guilty party. And if the dump truck had been doing 35 in a 30, it would NOT have received a speeding ticket or been cited as the cause of the accident.
 

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Do you deserve a trip to the ER?

bigbill said:
When I was riding in Virginia Beach, it was not unusual for the group to go faster than 30 mph. It isn't that hard in a large group, especially with a little breeze behind you. Sprints on Great Neck Rd would be in the mid to upper 30's since they usually started at 30 mph. One of the neighborhoods we rode through sent a rep to our preride group to ask us to keep our speed down to 15 mph in their neighborhood. The posted limit was 25 mph. We asked him what speed the cars were limited to and didn't seem to understand the question. If I am stopped for speeding in a 25 zone while riding, then I deserve the ticket.
I have biases. I seldom ride in pace lines and I never hammer in residential area.

I ask in all seriousness- how good are your brakes/tires? I know mine are not good enough to prevent me from colliding with a vehicle that pulls in front of me if I am doing 25. Not to mention kids, strollers, dogs, joggers with headphones, opening cars doors and other hazards in residential areas.

Why take these riske when less busy areas are available?
 

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DIRT BOY said:
I know the area and it's a great place to ride a short litle course and I have seen these group rides.

Now my question is....

This is a residential aera and the posted speed limit in 30 MPH. Should these guys be riding ovewr the speed limit? I know cars do but that means they are breaking the law. That means the group is as well and could acutally get a ticket.

How do you guys feel with things like this?

They are a few gropus here small and large that ride the main area in Miami and have no regard for the rules of the road. Blowing though lights (because there is a large pack and they think it's their right so they don't have to un-clip. Even having a guy on a scotter block and hold traffic up.), stop sign, cutting off cars, not yelding, etc which anger local and drivers out there even more and puts everyone in harms way.

I can't tell you how many times I over hear stuff like this from non-cyclists.

Thes are NOT police escorted rides or rides with permits.

Yes, I do go through stop signs/light when the road is EMPTY and I am not hindering traffic.

Yep, drivers do the same things as well. But when they collied it's two cars. Not you on a bike. They are more likley to scare a bike off the road than another car as well.

My biggest problem would be the size of the group, not the speed or area they were riding in.

Bigger groups can be seen better, but generally make it harder for drivers to get past and can cause as many or more problmems than a solo rider. I like to keep group sizes to 15 riders or less. That seems to be a good balance of enough riders to go fast and be seen, but small enough to allow cars to get past easier.

They could have easily broken that group of riders into two or even three groups and spread them out a 1 or 2 minute intervals, which might have helped overall, and would likely have reduced the number of riders involved.

Overall, it sounds like a mess. A group of 30-40 riders doing 30-35 mph in a residential area is an accident waiting to happen....One way or another.
 

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Ultimately we need to ride defensively, and pay attention because we will always pay the price for our mistakes and those of the drivers. If some driver is about to make a bad choice I try to be aware, now if it means riding slower to take in all the activity in a congested area to be safe it makes sense to me. I leave pace lines to wide open roads, and even then don't always trust the leader to keep an eye out for me when I am in the back of the pack. Hope everyone heals up properly. Seems like a pack of cyclist would be easier to see than nearly any vehicle, except for maybe P-Diddys H2 limo. I wonder if the drivers view was obstructed...of if the cell phone rang.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
JohnnyTooBad said:
I agree that bike riders need to be held to the same laws we expect auto drivers to obey, but saying that if they happen to be doing 32-35 in a 30 zone, they might have been the cause of the accident is flat out wrong. The woman in the car drove out of the driveway/parking lot without regard for a herd of bikes (a.k.a. TRAFFIC) coming from her left. If those bikes had been a dump truck, the outcome would have been quite different for the guilty party. And if the dump truck had been doing 35 in a 30, it would NOT have received a speeding ticket or been cited as the cause of the accident.
I did not mean that paticular one But if you are goig too fast, chnaces are you cannot stop in time to avoid an accident. Same as a car.

My point is they should not have these hammer fests in residential neighborhoods at thso speeds.

They lady in this paticular case ws at fault. But maybe if they were riding slower, maybe the accident could ahve been avoided or not as bad.

Drivers here are terriable have have no regard from cyclists or pedstrians.
Then agin they are a HUGE amount of cyclcits here that have no regard for other or the rules of the road.

That's my POINT here.
 

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Even if there is a speed limit in a residential area, it doesn't mean that you can ride or drive at that speed. You should slow down significantly if there are obstacles or an intersection.

Once I saw a boy rushing across the street after a ball, and I stopped immediately. That bike group wouldn't stop in such a case and slam into the boy.
 

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Hey I like the thrill of a fast pack as much as anybody, but this problem continues to get worse - bigger packs, more urban sprawl, more cars, more population.

History lesson time: why are the Brits renowned for their time trial abilities? Because group riding of any kind was banned nationwide for many years.

Here in the Dallas area, the famed Richardson Bike Mart Saturday morning rides have re-routed because one of the city councils on the route asked / threatened a ban.

Solution? Don't know I have one that'll actually work. But I do like the smaller group theory. Leave the big packs for closed roads.
 

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I realize that some of these rides are de facto "critical mass" rides--- where stragglers blow lights to catch up and anarchy reins. But the real issue remains with motorized traffic.

Creakyknees said:
Hey I like the thrill of a fast pack as much as anybody, but this problem continues to get worse - bigger packs, more urban sprawl, more cars, more population.

History lesson time: why are the Brits renowned for their time trial abilities? Because group riding of any kind was banned nationwide for many years.

Here in the Dallas area, the famed Richardson Bike Mart Saturday morning rides have re-routed because one of the city councils on the route asked / threatened a ban.

Solution? Don't know I have one that'll actually work. But I do like the smaller group theory. Leave the big packs for closed roads.
 
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