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I created a thread asking something a little bit more broad/vague but i have a specific question and request opinions versus my ignorant thoughts.

Im currently 270ish and I will be riding road for the majority of my rides with the hope to get on a little gravel just to get from one trail to another. Both wheelsets will be for disc version bikes.

Im thinking about picking up one of these two wheelsets:
1. HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.
2. Velocity Dyad 36h with White Industries hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.

Im really trying to understand if there is a "large" difference between 32h vs 36 hole? I understand that 36h is heavier and better suited for my weight right now but in 6+ months... my weight will change and the 32h should be fine? While Im more of a fan of the HED Belgiums mainly because Im familiar with the name and they just look "better" to me... the Velocity Dyads might fit the gravel profile better in the long term use if I choose to take a ride in that direction.

From my understanding... a 40h is said to not produce much differences than the 36h in regards to 4x lacing or anything else but Im asking to confirm that current train of thought.

TIA
 

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I would look at it this way... why not get the 36h and have peace of mind? Any potential weight penalty will be wiped away as you lose weight.
 

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I would look at it this way... why not get the 36h and have piece of mind? Any potential weight penalty will be wiped away as you lose weight.
I know this answer is not adequate but mainly because I like the HED Belgiums more in terms of aesthetics but the Belgiums do not come in 36h. They stop at 32h. =(
 

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I know this answer is not adequate but mainly because I like the HED Belgiums more in terms of aesthetics but the Belgiums do not come in 36h. They stop at 32h. =(
I'll offer a bit of a different view. 32h on a modern rim is a lot of spokes. The mere percent increase in spoke count from 32 to 36 is just under 10% (obviously) whereas going from 20 to 24 to 28 to 32 is a series of much bigger though diminishing steps.

When we've done static stiffness testing we've found a near flatline beyond 28. Plus at 36 the distance between spoke holes in the rim is tiny, the hub flanges are just perforated... Nothing's ever free.

It's quite strange to be on this side of the conversation after years and years of railing against the 'how few spokes can I get away with?' trend.
 

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I know this answer is not adequate but mainly because I like the HED Belgiums more in terms of aesthetics but the Belgiums do not come in 36h. They stop at 32h. =(
So... we're really looking for validation... :) NTTAWWT. Get the Belgiums then, and keep an eye out for errant potholes. You should be fine.
 

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The real difference for you, IMO, are that you may be riding your bike home if you brake 1 of the 36 spokes but you may be calling for an Uber if 1 of the 32 spokes brakes. However, neither of these outcomes is warranted; just anticipated probable outcomes under different degrees of safety.

Would a 32h HED Belgium+ build to a good wheel for you? I think so. Would it be less worthy than a 36h Dyad? I dont think so.
I think at that level and particularly between these two rims, one being wider than the other, the difference in spoke count is somewhat bridged and the builder quality remains the important variable. Additionally, the HED seems to have higher consistency in quality than the Dyad and that often means more even spoke tensions which tends to help spoke longevity.

If you prefer to remain with a 36h rim the likes of HED Belgium+, then the H+Son Archetype may also be a decent choice for you at the same quality, almost the same finish and half the cost of the HED. Its got rim brake tracks but is non-machine-walled so the finish remains on them.

Another choice you may consider is triple-butted spokes for a bit of extra insurance at the elbows.
 

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Just my opinion, but I'd go with the 32h Belgium Plus.

Background: I have 2 wheelsets that are in almost constant use. 1 is my Campag Record 32h w/Belgium Plus, the other is a Campag Chorus 32h w/Dyad, DT Competition spokes w/brass nipples on both. The Belgium are on my primary road bike, the Dyad are on my fast commuter.

I've had the Dyad a couple of years longer than the Belgium, but they have approx 1/2 the miles the Belgium have on them. The miles might be a bit tougher since it is commuting so I have about 15 lbs more on the bike + the bike itself is 5 lbs heavier (I'm 185, not quite a clydesdale) but the Dyad are showing signs of cracking around the spoke holes.

Spoke tension is within the range Velocity recommends, but I'm seeing discoloration around the spoke holes as well as the start of some cracks. The guy that built the wheels (he built both sets) was and wasn't surprised with the Dyad. He said his early builds with them were bulletproof, but the latter builds seemed to have cracking problems. Given my weight he didn't expect any issues with them. FWIW he no longer builds Dyad but that is more likely due to supply issues than too many issues with the rims.
 

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I've actually ridden 70 miles with a friend who broke one of his 32 spokes literally 3 miles into a big ride. This was pre-November. He ripped the broken spoke out and said "eh, there's 31 more."

I haven't done it in a while, but have on several occasions tested (on purpose) that a well-built 24h rear only needs 11 non-drive spokes. It needs all dozen drive side spokes, but it'll do pretty well without one of the nds spokes. And a 20h front is going to be pretty hopeless if a spoke breaks. But we're a LONG way from any of that with a 32h build.

I would choose a HED rim over a Velocity rim 11 times out of 5. And H+ are pretty nice, but "almost the same finish"? A stretch. Archetypes are also machined as other rim brake rims usually are, their nuance (similar to FLO30) being that they are anodized post-machining. That anodized finish can be thought of as temporary - it's not durable.
 

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I created a thread asking something a little bit more broad/vague but i have a specific question and request opinions versus my ignorant thoughts.

Im currently 270ish and I will be riding road for the majority of my rides with the hope to get on a little gravel just to get from one trail to another. Both wheelsets will be for disc version bikes.

Im thinking about picking up one of these two wheelsets:
1. HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.
2. Velocity Dyad 36h with White Industries hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.

Im really trying to understand if there is a "large" difference between 32h vs 36 hole? I understand that 36h is heavier and better suited for my weight right now but in 6+ months... my weight will change and the 32h should be fine? While Im more of a fan of the HED Belgiums mainly because Im familiar with the name and they just look "better" to me... the Velocity Dyads might fit the gravel profile better in the long term use if I choose to take a ride in that direction.

From my understanding... a 40h is said to not produce much differences than the 36h in regards to 4x lacing or anything else but Im asking to confirm that current train of thought.

TIA
There is a notable problem in both the rims recommended. Both Dyad and Belgium don't have brass eyelets in the spoke holes. The eyelets prevent the rims from cracking around the spoke holes. You'll replace the rim from the brake surfaces on the sidewalls getting concave and thinning out, to the point I've seem them pull apart from spoke tension. If the rim doesn't have eyelets, it'll likely start coming apart around the spoke holes sooner than the brake blocks get paper thin.

Campy has some great 32 and 36 spoke rims that are "wide" and have these brass eyelets. Ambrosio and Sun have some inexpensive 32 and 36 hole rims with eyelets, perfect for carrying loads and touring. They'll last 2 or 3 times the Dyad and Belgium.

Also: butted spokes are lighter, absorb shocks nicely, and are torsionally very strong and stiff. But they're really easy to "wind up," twist, when building or touch up truing, and then they break. Straight gauge spokes, like 14 mm in back and 15 mm in front, don't twist as easily and true with less hassle. Straight gauge are also the most commonly available at bike shops if you commute or tour.
 

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butted spokes.............are torsionally very strong and stiff. But they're really easy to "wind up," twist, when building or touch up truing, and then they break.
What? :eek: I'll give you this on the mechanics of Torsion from Wiki -"torsion is the twisting of an object due to an applied torque". So if they're "very strong and stiff" how can they be "easy to wind up"?

And if anyone is winding up a spoke "when building or touch up truing" to the point that they break, they have no business building a wheel. I can't even break a Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 - the ultimate in butting) from applied torsion.

I won't even comment on the eyelets preventing rim cracking. Don't make me go to the trouble of posting a photo.
 

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I was nearly the same size and weight as the OP (I was 270lbs at that time) when my bike shop ordered me some 'bomb proof' wheels for a bike I had just purchased back in 2014. I didn't know what questions to ask, so trusted them to make the right decisions. I ended up putting 15k miles on a set of HED Belgiums on King hubs. They were 28/28 and I never even had to have them trued.

Finally, last last summer, on an easy recovery ride after a big long ride with lots of climbing (105 miles/8400ft), one of the aluminum nipples failed on the drive side. I took them to a local wheel builder who rebuilt them with brass nipples. I full expect them to last a long long time.

If I had it to do again (and I do - new bike with 12mm thru axles) I'd order the same wheels again, but definitely brass nipples instead of alloy (because duh, now I know better!). I'm lighter now (215-220lbs) and I fully expect them to last long long time. If it were another rim brake bike I'd even consider 24h/28h, but with the 160mm rotor in front I think I'll stick with 28h/28h and see how it goes.

I know it seems crazy to some, and I know a lot of people lighter than me have had terrible experiences with wheels. Maybe I just got lucky... Maybe I'm just easy on wheels.. I dunno. For my own needs, 32h front wheels seems like overkill (24h is likely plenty), and arguably 28h is plenty in the back, given the right combination of components and build quality.
 

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What? :eek: I'll give you this on the mechanics of Torsion from Wiki -"torsion is the twisting of an object due to an applied torque". So if they're "very strong and stiff" how can they be "easy to wind up"?

And if anyone is winding up a spoke "when building or touch up truing" to the point that they break, they have no business building a wheel. I can't even break a Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 - the ultimate in butting) from applied torsion.

I won't even comment on the eyelets preventing rim cracking. Don't make me go to the trouble of posting a photo.
You've built more wheels than I have, that's for sure. So why not be a little less dismissive of the idea that perhaps a brass eyelet will strengthen a spoke hole so the spokes can't pull out and shred the aluminum rim around the hole? True or false?

My experience with butted spokes is what I said, they're harder to true because they twist very easily. I had to hold the spoke above the nipple with a needle nosed wrench to make sure it didn't turn when truing, so am surprised at your response. I also edited out a phrase on brass eyelets: yes, the aluminum rims will fracture around the hole even under the brass eyelets, as you imply but don't explain. But they still last much longer than the identical rim would without the eyelet. Rim alloys may be improved, but aluminum still cracks under repeated stress such as a wheel goes through.

"Torsion" is the wrong word perhaps. Meant to say "tension" if there's a difference in result, as in "tensioning spokes" to a given tension, determined by plucking or a tensionometer. An old idea passed around by wheel builders is that thinning the spoke down in the middle absorbs shocks better. Straight gauge transfers significantly more of the stress to the elbows on the hubs, which is where most spokes break.

At the same tension as straight gauge, these skinny spokes also held up as well, because the stress was from the ends, along the length of the spoke. Very hard to break a wire by pulling it only. It doesn't bend. In fact a few builders would tell you the 1.5 mm would absorb just enough shocks to prevent the spoke from breaking at the bend on the hub. Straight gauge spokes would transfer all the shocks to the bend, and would break sooner than butted spokes. What was your experience on that issue?

If the spoke twists and doesn't twist back when the wheel is stress relieved by hand, it will break. So you're agreeing, a person who has any bidness truing wheels better be careful not to twist the spokes when tensioning. I'm saying that is very easy to do with butted spokes, not as easy to do with straight gauge spokes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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I had to hold the spoke above the nipple with a needle nosed wrench to make sure it didn't turn when truing,
Let the spoke twist!
Instead of squeezing (and thus nearly cutting) the spoke with a wrench you could apply a piece of duct tape on the spoke, so you can see when the twisting stops and the pulling begins. After that you can take out the twist.
 

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There is a notable problem in both the rims recommended. Both Dyad and Belgium don't have brass eyelets in the spoke holes. The eyelets prevent the rims from cracking around the spoke holes. You'll replace the rim from the brake surfaces on the sidewalls getting concave and thinning out, to the point I've seem them pull apart from spoke tension. If the rim doesn't have eyelets, it'll likely start coming apart around the spoke holes sooner than the brake blocks get paper thin.

Campy has some great 32 and 36 spoke rims that are "wide" and have these brass eyelets. Ambrosio and Sun have some inexpensive 32 and 36 hole rims with eyelets, perfect for carrying loads and touring. They'll last 2 or 3 times the Dyad and Belgium.

Also: butted spokes are lighter, absorb shocks nicely, and are torsionally very strong and stiff. But they're really easy to "wind up," twist, when building or touch up truing, and then they break. Straight gauge spokes, like 14 mm in back and 15 mm in front, don't twist as easily and true with less hassle. Straight gauge are also the most commonly available at bike shops if you commute or tour.
I am sorry to say this but you are fundamentally incorrect in all of the points you brought up. The reasons on Why? are available in the higher quality wheelbuilding books.
We could discuss it further after you become more familiar with these concepts.
 

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I've actually ridden 70 miles with a friend who broke one of his 32 spokes literally 3 miles into a big ride. This was pre-November. He ripped the broken spoke out and said "eh, there's 31 more."

I haven't done it in a while, but have on several occasions tested (on purpose) that a well-built 24h rear only needs 11 non-drive spokes. It needs all dozen drive side spokes, but it'll do pretty well without one of the nds spokes. And a 20h front is going to be pretty hopeless if a spoke breaks. But we're a LONG way from any of that with a 32h build.

I would choose a HED rim over a Velocity rim 11 times out of 5. And H+ are pretty nice, but "almost the same finish"? A stretch. Archetypes are also machined as other rim brake rims usually are, their nuance (similar to FLO30) being that they are anodized post-machining. That anodized finish can be thought of as temporary - it's not durable.
My last experience with a broken spoke was several years ago and left me stranded in the middle of nowhere. Wheel was a Mavic Ksyrium SL with the gigantic aluminum spokes and in perfect working order. I was riding the back-country roads when two farm dogs took after me. One caught up but missed my right heel and got its snout in the wheel. I must of been doing 25-28mph at the time. The impact was so much I thought the chainstay on my Specialized was toast. Was able to keep the bike right-side up and kept on going. A hundred yards or so later, I stopped to check the damage. The spoke (DS) was rotated more than 90 deg starting at about 1" above the nipple but was still in one piece. The chainstay seemed ok under the mucus and hair left on it. Both dogs disappeared after the lead dog got injured. I thought of bending the spoke back but looking at how all of the black anodizing had disappeared I was skeptical about damaging it further and decided to leave as it was. I rode the bike for about a mile, maybe a bit less, and then with a loud "snap" the spoke broke into three pieces and the wheel became totally unridable no matter what I tried of doing. Weight wise, I must of been in the 230lbs range at that time.

I would also choose a HED over a Velocity, 11 out of 11 times but for reasons more prevalent to the wheel builder than the wheel rider (although I may make an exception with the Quill to try it out).

Incidentally, the OP uses disk brakes so the anodizing on the Archetype brake tracks should not be affected.
 

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Lots of replies here, some of it conflicting. Dirti C., the most helpful advice here is from the two known Clydes in this thread - DCGriz and Migen. So I'm sure both of them have first hand experience of the frustration of wheel failures. In fact, I was about to post and caution to you about the aluminum CK hub freebody until I saw Migen's post about his success with these. Somehow, common sense was telling me an aluminum freehub body and a 270lb. man were a bad combo. I was obviously wrong. After 15K miles, a wheel doesn't owe you anything.

Mike T., while not a Clyde, also knows what he's talking about - he's a very experienced wheelbuilder who has been building wheels for about 5 decades. It was he and DC Griz who encouraged and motivated me to take up wheel building. Lots and lots of excellent info on his website.

Sorry Fred, your advice conflicts with everything I have read. I am really surprised you as a longtime bike mechanic, you would be giving advice like this. As others have said, spoke windup is not the bogeyman you see it to be. Mike T. explains the "two steps forward, one step backward" method of dealing with this. And as Migen said, any spoke windup will be relieved after a few rides and will result in an out-of-true wheel. Irrelevant point as a good wheel builder will stress relieve his/her wheels before they even go on the bike.

Also not a relevant point is eyelets vs. no eyelets. There are both good and crappy rims with eyelets and without eyelets. Eyelets do not necessarily make a better rim. More likely, eyelets are sometimes a crutch on an already weak rim to compensate. In other words, saying rims with eyelets are always stronger is like saying when you are shopping for a mortgage, you should always look for the lowest interest rate and ignore things like fees, points, balloon payments, etc.

Bottom line is you probably won't go wrong with the HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes. I have yet to hear of a HED Belgium rim failing. I have heard of quite a few QC issues with Velocity rims. As Migen said, you might want to find out whether the nipples on those are brass or aluminum as that was his point of failure. You want brass as aluminum can corrode over time.


 

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Those 15k mile King hubs still have the original freehub body. There are some gouges, but insignificant at this point.

Body weight isn't a direct correlation to freehub body stress. Power to weight ratio is a better determinant. But being 250+ pounds, and having 55 year old knees, it's not like I was seeking out climbing challenges either.

I told the OP in PMS that I'm always very careful how I verbalize things in threads like this.

28/28 HED/King wheels work really well for me. Everything I could ask for in an all around wheel.

That may not be everyone's experience.

I have a riding buddy who is 30 pounds lighter than me (still a Clyde), who shreds wheels and tires like they are made out of paper. I think he has gone through three sets of wheels (varying sources and quality) in the time I've owned my HED/Kings. I very rarely get flats. He gets them quite frequently. I would be comfortable putting the ratio at 10 to 1.

We live in the same neighborhood, and ride the same roads and trails for the most part. It's all difficult to explain.

Some people are just harder on wheels than others, and he and I are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

I told the OP that my experiences are my own, and ultimately for him I'm only one data point. He needs to consider many and the be willing to accept the risk vs reward of his wheel options.

$1200 is a lot of money.



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Those 15k mile King hubs still have the original freehub body. There are some gouges, but insignificant at this point.

Body weight isn't a direct correlation to freehub body stress. Power to weight ratio is a better determinant. But being 250+ pounds, and having 55 year old knees, it's not like I was seeking out climbing challenges either.

I told the OP in PMS that I'm always very careful how I verbalize things in threads like this.

28/28 HED/King wheels work really well for me. Everything I could ask for in an all around wheel.

That may not be everyone's experience.

I have a riding buddy who is 30 pounds lighter than me (still a Clyde), who shreds wheels and tires like they are made out of paper. I think he has gone through three sets of wheels (varying sources and quality) in the time I've owned my HED/Kings. I very rarely get flats. He gets them quite frequently. I would be comfortable putting the ratio at 10 to 1.

We live in the same neighborhood, and ride the same roads and trails for the most part. It's all difficult to explain.

Some people are just harder on wheels than others, and he and I are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

I told the OP that my experiences are my own, and ultimately for him I'm only one data point. He needs to consider many and the be willing to accept the risk vs reward of his wheel options.

$1200 is a lot of money.
Point well taken. $1,200?? The OP didn't quote a price on those wheels. IMHO, $1,200 is too much to pay for a set of wheels, period. But that's just me. I would be willing to spend $700 tops. I'm guessing the CK hubs are the most expensive part of those. A pair of Shimano Ultegra 6800 hubs are about one fourth the cost and just as strong and durable, if not more. The expense in the CK hubs is in the lightweight.
 

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The expense in the CK hubs is in the lightweight.
This is a bit of an oversimplification. CK is one of the few hub manufacturers that DOESN'T play the "my hubs are lighter than yours" game. Their product descriptions are laced with references to "responsible product weights" and hubs that "weigh what they need to weigh in order to do what we want them to do." As someone who's aware of most everything on the hub market and has built with a huge subset of that, I find their approach to be noteworthy.

There is an enormous array of hubs that are both lighter and less expensive than CK. Literally zero percent of the cost driver behind CK hubs is weight.

Cost drivers for CK, in no particular order, include but are not limited to medical-grade machining precision (CK actually started out making medical devices), domestic US production, expensive processes that do drive quality (material stock, forging, machining), superior bearings produced in-house, availability of color and lacing options, and a 5 year warranty (warrantees don't come for free). Some of the price is also due to the cachet and appeal of CK, so there is a bit of "what the market will bear" in there.

The OP's application is one where Ultegra hubs are an applicable choice, as they are only available in 32 and 36 hole drilling, and Ultegra hubs are generally regarded as very good hubs. Depending on application, they may offer as much as a CK does in any particular application. I don't think you'll find a ton of support for the notion that they are in any respect superior to CK hubs, though.

This is all coming from a person who has had more frank conversations about the price implications of CK hubs than certainly all but a few in the world. They are expensive. The overwhelmingly most common sentiments among people who get them - "I've always wanted a set of them," "they are the most beautiful things you can put on a bike," and "I can afford it and I just want to know I'm getting the best there is." And it is more or less those and only those people to whom I don't present a more objective argument that favors other less expensive choices.

I get critiqued and criticized on the internet all day every day, and I welcome it, and I think that consumers should critique any component of any purchase decision. But as we do that, can we please at least keep the facts straight?

On other thread-related topics, if you or your builder can't control spoke windup please find someone else to build your wheels. That is a primary element of basic wheel building competence. And the arguments against eyelets significantly outweighs those for. Anything that an eyelet does can be done better by a washer, and drilling larger spoke holes than necessary simply to accommodate an eyelet is terrible engineering.
 
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