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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For 2010, if you are in the market for a new bike; would you consider Red or DuraAce, Force or Ultegra, Rival or 105?

I would think this has been covered, but I could not find a clear idea on new products using search -- plus market is in flux.

I am seeing lots of interest in Rival from CX types and Red from tri types; but I am uncertain how many road types would interest in Red, Force, or Rival on a new bike in 2010 model year.

Any input is appreciated.

BTW - of course, I would like to do Campy too; but can never tell what the Euro/USD exchange will do and what move will be during the lead-time: so Campy is risky to order to say the least.
 

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'09 Rival - best set for the price in my opinion. And people seem to really like the new 105 line. I'd concentrate on both. Force? Probably the least popular. As far as market popularity, I'm going to have to put them in this order over the next couple of years:

(1) Rival
(2) 105
(3) Red
(4) DA 7900
(5) Ultegra

That's just my opinion on the market as a whole, not a claim as to which one group is "better" than another :)
 

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I currently have campy record 10speed. While I love record and I got it at a good price, I think it far exceeds my riding capability and I could easily have just as much fun and performance with a lower end group.

Next, I would consider the following (in no particular order)
Campy Chorus (although I am hesitant to go with 11 speed)
Campy Centaur
Sram Rival
Sram Force
 

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Sorry, I was replying with what I thought the MARKET would want :)

If we're talking about me, considering performance, value, and all of those other factors that people consider when choosing a group, here would be my order of choices...

(1) Rival
(2) Red
(3) DA 7900
(4) 105
(5) Ultegra SL
(6) Ultegra
(7) Force
 

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full group should include the cranks/bb... none of that mix 'n match jive
 

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FatTireFred said:
full group should include the cranks/bb... none of that mix 'n match jive
Amen. FSA makes some nice stuff, but their cranks and BB's are not anywhere near the level of Shimano. Tektro brakes are ok, but again, Shimano are better. Best bang for the buck is 105 for sure. Sram looks like they make some nice stuff but I don't like the double tap
 

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My new bike (delivered this week) will have '09 Rival - currently seems to be the value champ among groups. My old bike has Ultegra, which I still think (particularly the SL) is the sweet spot in Shimano's line for value.

JB
 

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i am a campy faithful...one who thinks its worth the money to just get what you want(read not the best deal/cheapest gruppo)...looks like the new ultegra looks pretty sweet....see the velonews article on that...

alternatively the new athena from campy will offer 11 speed if your into that

for me of the options you list....i would only consider the dura ace or the new ultegra...sram just doesnt do it for me.

as far as your question goes you are essentially asking shimano Vs. Sram? I go with shimano...but feel that campy deserves a look ...especially if you haven't ridden it...some people love it...like me!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
FatTireFred said:
full group should include the cranks/bb... none of that mix 'n match jive
agreed
but there should be options
models with Full Group and budget minded models with other cranks&brakes

in the case of Sram - probably all bikes shld be full group
in Shimano lots of people accept and even like FSA cranks, etc

{surprising note -- We make more money on full group bikes than on reduced group bikes}
 

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bikesdirect said:
agreed
but there should be options
models with Full Group and budget minded models with other cranks&brakes

in the case of Sram - probably all bikes shld be full group
in Shimano lots of people accept and even like FSA cranks, etc

{surprising note -- We make more money on full group bikes than on reduced group bikes}


if that's the case, then why not make 'em all real full groups, and give an option of fsa or whatever cranks? if people accept 'em, my guess is that's the price you pay for the price you pay. if people like or actually prefer 'em (I kinda doubt this) then that can be an upgrade for an upcharge. for the budget stuff, who cares, people buying those don't know any better
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
repartocorse40 said:
i am a campy faithful...one who thinks its worth the money to just get what you want(read not the best deal/cheapest gruppo)...looks like the new ultegra looks pretty sweet....see the velonews article on that...

alternatively the new athena from campy will offer 11 speed if your into that

for me of the options you list....i would only consider the dura ace or the new ultegra...sram just doesnt do it for me.

as far as your question goes you are essentially asking shimano Vs. Sram? I go with shimano...but feel that campy deserves a look ...especially if you haven't ridden it...some people love it...like me!

Love it at $1.25 to Euro - Hate it at $1.50 to Euro
when booking you can not know price until it ships; if dollar falls right before ship date OE buyer is killed

shimano and sram do not have this problem, book it at fixed USD price

Since buying currency futures is not part of my business model - Campy is really hard to order. I think this situation really effects how much Campy spec you see in the USA

That said - how is 11-speed going over???
We never hear a lot of requests for it
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
FatTireFred said:
if that's the case, then why not make 'em all real full groups, and give an option of fsa or whatever cranks? if people accept 'em, my guess is that's the price you pay for the price you pay. if people like or actually prefer 'em (I kinda doubt this) then that can be an upgrade for an upcharge. for the budget stuff, who cares, people buying those don't know any better

Price points
some people like a reduced group bike at $300 less [Ultegra] or $800 less DA
example - new Immortal Spirit is $1995 with 7900 reduced group -- Immortal Team is $2795 for full group 7900 -- That is $800 that some customers do not want to spend and they are happy with FSA and cane creek brakes on $1995 version

So on many bikes; we will offer option of reduced and full
in the case of Sram - we will probably on road use full group only and in CX & Tri use reduced groups [no Rival cantis anyway -- and Tri types seem to like SLK & K-Force cranks]

No way to make everyone happy on this spec
But we are going to greatly increase number CF and Ti bikes so there will be tons of options
 

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If I were buying, Ultegra would be my first choice based on value and function.

If I were selling, probably Rival now that it has CF levers. Its cheaper (presumably), but the relatively low weight and CF inflate its perceived value.
 
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bikesdirect said:
That said - how is 11-speed going over???
We never hear a lot of requests for it
15 year dura ace user here. Background: CAT II who is now over 35 and downgraded to CAT III.

I literally just got Campy 11 speed chorus. Price was too good, and chorus seemed to be top performance - record and super record just seemed to be lighter with no performance gain. Here is my one week observation.

Campy makes the best hoods. Yes, the best - make sure you actually really try a new campy hood.

Modulation on brakes is better, not as strong as ace, but safer - think ABS.

Downshift is awesome. Way better then shimano, downshift as in 53 to 39 and 21 to 11.

11 is fine. Yea, we don't need 11 any more than 10,9 or even 8 - however, the cluster is that much tighter.

Upshift is a little too tight. Ace was better. It rained with 48 degree weather and I had to ride back about 20 miles at a TT pace - I actually didn't want to upshift at times cause it's so stiff.

Way lighter than ace. My 60cm dale actually kind felt light for the first time.

All in all, happy, and I will see if there a breakin period for upshift. All things being equal, I like campy, but, as we al know - sometimes all else is not equal (investment in tools and exchange rates, blah, blah).

I'll have a longer review on the campy forum.
 

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Easy, Dura Ace 7900. Will be upgrading my Orca from UltegraSL to Dura Ace soon,a nd put the Ultegra on a different frame.
 

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bikesdirect said:
Price points
some people like a reduced group bike at $300 less [Ultegra] or $800 less DA
example - new Immortal Spirit is $1995 with 7900 reduced group -- Immortal Team is $2795 for full group 7900 -- That is $800 that some customers do not want to spend and they are happy with FSA and cane creek brakes on $1995 version


sure, you make the diff that much and people will go for price and "settle" for off-group components... but let's keep it simple and try to compare apples to apples, and not mix in diff grade components and diff frames. put the same group on the same frame and at the same price or slightly higher for the one w/ fsa cranks, and which do you think they would they choose most of the time?
 

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Disjointed comments:

I'm vaguely interested in SRAM, but the new Ultegra really has my eye right now.

I prefer value to all-out bling, and mostly think DA/Red to be over the top for me. At the same time, I want 'more' than 105, so I like the Ultegra slot - especially with the new levers.

I don't mind 'reduced' groups out of hand, and if (for example) an FSA crank puts DA into the full Ultegra range (or close) I'd imagine it'd get a few hits.

For SRAM, Red really needs to be a full group, except perhaps the 1090 cassette, which I'd probably avoid at equal pricing to 1070. So far, it seems to be priced a bit too strongly as compared to DA in my mind. But I would be interested to see what you could put a ti/Red bike together for.

Force/Rival is an interesting problem to my mind. There just doesn't seem to be any justification for Force, beyond just a notch of upscale-ness. But the price delta doesn't support it in my mind. But your business model may have more room for it.
 

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Campy Chorus for me, when I upgrade my PedalForce, if I can afford it, I'll go Record. But more likely Chorus. SRAM is my 2nd choice. I have ergonomic issues with Shimano, so won't even consider that on a road bike. I like the Shimano shifters on my MTB though.
 

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I've ridden Shimano Ultegra and 105 on previous bikes...My new bike has SRAM Rival on it.

For me it's no longer even a debate...SRAM all the way....Rival, Force or Red. If I had the money, I'd go with SRAM Red on a future bike...but, lack of money will prevent that from happening any time soon :)

At this time though, I don't see a huge need for SRAM Force since Rival is every bit as good and only a few grams heavier for less money.

Never tried Campy, only checked it out on showroom floors...the shifters don't seem to fit my hands well and since I have a fused left thumb, the shifters are not a real option for me, so it will always be Shimano or SRAM for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
FatTireFred said:
sure, you make the diff that much and people will go for price and "settle" for off-group components... but let's keep it simple and try to compare apples to apples, and not mix in diff grade components and diff frames. put the same group on the same frame and at the same price or slightly higher for the one w/ fsa cranks, and which do you think they would they choose most of the time?
We have done that:
Immortal Force [reduced] and Immortal Ice [full]
le Champion Ti [reduced] and le Champion SL Ti [full]

Ti bikes sell so fast I can not tell if either is more popular
CF bikes the lower priced reduced Ultegra out sells the higher priced full Ultegra

I think there is a market for both
BUT agree that in the case of Sram [and Campy] Full Groups would be the only ones I would do

With Shimano, I think so many people are so used to reduced groups on Treks, Specialized, Giant, Fuji, Kestrel, and about everything else - that the market for reduced group Shimano 105, Ultegra, and DuraAce will stay strong.
 
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