Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 20 of 173 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm starting out with some power training now that it is warming up and my goal for today was [email protected] I came in at 326, 322, 315, 317, and 312. Close enough, or so I thought, until I looked at my first spring time intervals from last year. [email protected] (318, 323, 327, 328, 314, 323).

The only thing that has changed since then is that I have stopped squatting/deadlifting (because I felt it impacted my intervals the next day), I'm 5-10lbs lighter, and I'm 1 year older. Every night before intervals I have salmon, brown rice, and salad for dinner, and oatmeal for breakfast the morning of. I'm very by-the-book with consistency to more easily identify patterns.

So, unless I had an off day, it seems like squats/deadlifts were the only major variable to change. It doesn't make sense to me that doing heavy weight/low reps (relative to cycling anyway) would help. My old squat/deadlift routine was pretty lazy, just 3 sets of 8-10 reps squats, 3 sets of 8-10 reps deadlifts, once a week.

Can anyone chime in on this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
Yeah,
One thing, compare 5x5 to 5x5.

Next, comparing one time to one time is not the greatest. If you could do it 3 weeks in a row, then it might be a better analysis.

Lastly, weights do help, especially riders over 35. You just have to gauge when to do weights so you recover properly. I can only do weights on Monday and Wednesday. If I do weights on Fri, I feel sluggish on a Saturday ride.

You should also very your weight workout. Do squats one week, lunges the next etc.

Also, do hamstring and glut work.

Oh, core core and more core work. 3 days a week if you can manage it time wise. I never found core work to affect my riding
 

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,287 Posts
...

So, unless I had an off day...

Comparing two sessions is a pretty small N to be drawing conclusions from, especially if you did have an off (or great) day for one session.

But what the heck, let's think about it anyway. Pure speculation here, given the limited data.

Maybe what is going on is that you are suffering a loss in the ramp up time at the start of a hard effort? I see a clear fade this year, but not last year. So it could be that your effort to get up to 320w takes more out of you than in the past. And that shows up over the repeated efforts. That makes sense if power lifting helps in short term efforts (the time to do a set/ramp up to 320w) but not so much for longer efforts (the time to do an interval at 320w.) Generally speaking, training helps to the extent it mirrors activity. Short powerful bursts help more with short powerful bursts.

Or it could be that you went out too hard on your first interval this year (326 versus 318 last year), and that caused the fade.

Or it could be that being 5-10 lbs lighter means you have less leg muscle mass, mass that went away (slightly) when you stopped power lifting. Less muscle, even a small amount, could be the reason for the slightly lower numbers.

So three options, four if you count "no real difference, statistical artifact". I am sure others can provide many more words on the topic. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,471 Posts
I'm starting out with some power training now that it is warming up and my goal for today was [email protected] I came in at 326, 322, 315, 317, and 312. Close enough, or so I thought, until I looked at my first spring time intervals from last year. [email protected] (318, 323, 327, 328, 314, 323).

The only thing that has changed since then is that I have stopped squatting/deadlifting (because I felt it impacted my intervals the next day), I'm 5-10lbs lighter, and I'm 1 year older. Every night before intervals I have salmon, brown rice, and salad for dinner, and oatmeal for breakfast the morning of. I'm very by-the-book with consistency to more easily identify patterns.

So, unless I had an off day, it seems like squats/deadlifts were the only major variable to change. It doesn't make sense to me that doing heavy weight/low reps (relative to cycling anyway) would help. My old squat/deadlift routine was pretty lazy, just 3 sets of 8-10 reps squats, 3 sets of 8-10 reps deadlifts, once a week.

Can anyone chime in on this?
Lifting over the winter definitely improved my power in the Spring. :thumbsup: I followed the plan of Eddy B for the Polish cycling team back in the 80s. He recommended high rep full body lifting to total 10 tons when all added up. I did all the standard stuff: squats, deadlifts, barbell curls, bench presses, side lifts, in 4 sets of 20 repetitions each, of light weights building up to moderate weights. Amazing that a standard routine adds up to 10 tons in about an hour. :D

Come Spring, I could do everything better, and only had to build up endurance, which came quickly. Go for it!

Don't eliminate upper body. Cyclists ignore upper body. I found my climbing and sprinting improved having pulled together and strengthened upper body. Definitely worth it over the winter when you're not using up lots of energy and recovery time racking up the miles.
 

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,287 Posts
One thing, compare 5x5 to 5x5.
Good point in general, but in this case the shorter intervals have the lower power numbers. I would expect, all things equal, the longer intervals to have the lower numbers, and more fade at the end, for the same level of fitness.
 

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,287 Posts
I'm not sure about the benefits of dead lifts. I've never read any cycling weight training program that included them.
The internet says...

What muscles do deadlifts work? Mostly lats, lower back, abs, glutes, hamstrings, and calves, ie the entire posterior chain. It's a true whole body movement. Back and Legs are primary muscle groups worked.

And I do see them mentioned in many cycling related hits. https://www.google.com/search?q=cycling+training+deadlifts Hits are 3/5 ratio on a three word search, deadlift to squats, in case you wondered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,471 Posts
Squats work the glutes, which is beneficial for cycling. I don't believe a lot of weight is necessary. Single leg squats are even better.

I'm not sure about the benefits of dead lifts. I've never read any cycling weight training program that included them.
Well, dead lifts helped strengthen my aging 45 year old back. I also relied on barbell curls. I used weights that I could lift 20-30 times in a set.

I think Eddy said lifting to failure wasn't the best way to train for cycling. He stressed repetition. Rather than standard 4 x 12, he'd prescribe 4 x 20 with lighter weights. I didn't believe it would work until I found out it did in the Spring.

He treated lifting like interval training. Rest only a minute or less between sets. Go from one set to the next without full recovery, to work the heart and cardio. That too paid off in the Spring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
Well, dead lifts helped strengthen my aging 45 year old back. I also relied on barbell curls. I used weights that I could lift 20-30 times in a set.

I think Eddy said lifting to failure wasn't the best way to train for cycling. He stressed repetition. Rather than standard 4 x 12, he'd prescribe 4 x 20 with lighter weights. I didn't believe it would work until I found out it did in the Spring.

He treated lifting like interval training. Rest only a minute or less between sets. Go from one set to the next without full recovery, to work the heart and cardio. That too paid off in the Spring.
I'm not an exercise physiologist, but I play one on the internet.

I agree here with Eddy in that lifting to failure requires your 48 hr typically to recover fully. Body builders work different groups each day for this reason.

Also, for cycling, we need muscular endurance as more than we need muscular strength. Higher reps will give you some strength and also give you muscular endurance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,006 Posts
Sounds like you're not in as good as shape.

Want to get better at 6 min intervals? Keep doing them.

With that said, those numbers are too close to say anything about anything. Could just be your powermeter variance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,947 Posts
The internet says...

What muscles do deadlifts work? Mostly lats, lower back, abs, glutes, hamstrings, and calves, ie the entire posterior chain. It's a true whole body movement. Back and Legs are primary muscle groups worked.

And I do see them mentioned in many cycling related hits. https://www.google.com/search?q=cycling+training+deadlifts Hits are 3/5 ratio on a three word search, deadlift to squats, in case you wondered.
Golly. Thanks! It's not often I'm made to feel like a ten year old, but you managed to do it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,006 Posts
Squats work the glutes, which is beneficial for cycling. I don't believe a lot of weight is necessary. Single leg squats are even better.
Squats are not likely doing a thing for VO2 max work. Except potentially making your legs too tired to push as much power as you could without.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,006 Posts
You should also very your weight workout. Do squats one week, lunges the next etc.

Also, do hamstring and glut work.

Oh, core core and more core work. 3 days a week if you can manage it time wise. I never found core work to affect my riding

Neither have I. Ergo, a waste of time if cycling performance is the goal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,471 Posts
Sounds like you're not in as good as shape.

Want to get better at 6 min intervals? Keep doing them.

With that said, those numbers are too close to say anything about anything. Could just be your powermeter variance.
Nonetheless, being out of shape could be blamed on the absence of weight work in the off season. When its cold and windy outside, no better antidote than lifting 10 tons of weights in the warmth and comfort of home. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,471 Posts
...Also, for cycling, we need muscular endurance as more than we need muscular strength. Higher reps will give you some strength and also give you muscular endurance.
Exactly.

A fit body, muscles all pulled together and performing efficiently, definitely enhanced power, IME. Going from one set to the next without complete recovery also enhanced endurance. Lifting to failure, of course, would cancel out the endurance!

Track specialists have big muscles but the ones who go into road racing have to train up. Their endurance is too short. Same with bulked up lifters. Notice how Lance's muscular upper body conditioned from triathlons melted away after the first few years?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,947 Posts
Squats are not likely doing a thing for VO2 max work. Except potentially making your legs too tired to push as much power as you could without.
I wasn't mentioning it to improve VO2 max work.

But...since that's essentially the topic at hand, I will redact my comment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,471 Posts
Squats work the glutes, which is beneficial for cycling. I don't believe a lot of weight is necessary. Single leg squats are even better.

I'm not sure about the benefits of dead lifts. I've never read any cycling weight training program that included them.
Many experts recognize deadlifts as the king of all exercises. They are not only good for cycling but if done correctly can help a lot with everyday activities, like picking heavy stuff off the floor in correct posture. Deadlifts will put a lot of strength on your posterior chain too and improve overall athletic performance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,947 Posts
Many experts recognize deadlifts as the king of all exercises. They are not only good for cycling but if done correctly can help a lot with everyday activities, like picking heavy stuff off the floor in correct posture. Deadlifts will put a lot of strength on your posterior chain too and improve overall athletic performance.
I have learned something today thanks to RBR Forums.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yeah,
One thing, compare 5x5 to 5x5.

Next, comparing one time to one time is not the greatest. If you could do it 3 weeks in a row, then it might be a better analysis.

Lastly, weights do help, especially riders over 35. You just have to gauge when to do weights so you recover properly. I can only do weights on Monday and Wednesday. If I do weights on Fri, I feel sluggish on a Saturday ride.

You should also very your weight workout. Do squats one week, lunges the next etc.

Also, do hamstring and glut work.

Oh, core core and more core work. 3 days a week if you can manage it time wise. I never found core work to affect my riding
It was not intentional to compare 5x5 to 6x6, that just happened to be the first interval session of each season. I went back and looked at last season to compare my starting point. I'll do a few more sessions and see how I compare. I just remember the last season's first day (6x6) so vividly. I had just gotten my power meter, amped to get training, fighting the urges to hit big power numbers right off the bat and burn myself out, etc. I'm just surprised that I hit 6x6 for the same numbers I just barely did for 5x5.


I'm 30 years old and spent age 21-28 doing weights but switched to cycling because it sounded more fun. I still do weights but I do 2 days a week of low intensity/volume and the bulk of my "program" (to stay in shape) is cycling. Weights M/W, cycling Tu/Th/Sa/Su.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Comparing two sessions is a pretty small N to be drawing conclusions from, especially if you did have an off (or great) day for one session.

But what the heck, let's think about it anyway. Pure speculation here, given the limited data.

Maybe what is going on is that you are suffering a loss in the ramp up time at the start of a hard effort? I see a clear fade this year, but not last year. So it could be that your effort to get up to 320w takes more out of you than in the past. And that shows up over the repeated efforts. That makes sense if power lifting helps in short term efforts (the time to do a set/ramp up to 320w) but not so much for longer efforts (the time to do an interval at 320w.) Generally speaking, training helps to the extent it mirrors activity. Short powerful bursts help more with short powerful bursts.

Or it could be that you went out too hard on your first interval this year (326 versus 318 last year), and that caused the fade.

Or it could be that being 5-10 lbs lighter means you have less leg muscle mass, mass that went away (slightly) when you stopped power lifting. Less muscle, even a small amount, could be the reason for the slightly lower numbers.

So three options, four if you count "no real difference, statistical artifact". I am sure others can provide many more words on the topic. :)
Yeah, being lighter my w/kg is probably about the same, I'm just surprised (and disappointed) that after all this time of riding hard I'm not any better off than I was a year ago. At the end of my interval program last summer I was the strongest I have ever been, but I've faded since then to the same starting point I was a year ago. This is disappointing since I live where I can ride year round. It's not like I just took 3 months off for winter...
 
1 - 20 of 173 Posts
Top