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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
in good shape to sell me? I'm using Keo's right now but want to see if the float is better for my knees. I know Lance used them for a long time.
 

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Mine finally wore the bearings out after 12 years... switched to Time RXS, more fragile but works just as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I guess they didn't owe you anything after twelve years. Were the Dura-Ace?
 

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Umm....

High Gear said:
in good shape to sell me? I'm using Keo's right now but want to see if the float is better for my knees. I know Lance used them for a long time.
Look Keo's offer three different degrees of float: 0 (black); 4.5 (grey), and 9 (red). How much float are you looking for?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
drewmcg said:
Look Keo's offer three different degrees of float: 0 (black); 4.5 (grey), and 9 (red). How much float are you looking for?
After being off the bike for the Winter the new Keo's feel like they have more drag in the float than my old standard LOOK pedals that I got rid of.
 

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High Gear said:
After being off the bike for the Winter the new Keo's feel like they have more drag in the float than my old standard LOOK pedals that I got rid of.
Backing off the allen bolt tension adjuster on each pedal a half-turn and a shot of WD40 or silicone spray on the platform and on the surface of the cleat might take care of it . . . Shimano's evidently have slightly less float (3 degrees vs. 4.5 or 9). But they're easier to walk in (although Keo has a new cleat with rubber bits to improve the coffeeshop shuffle).

I wonder if Lance's alleged preference for Shimano pedals weren't dictated by sponsorship deals . . . .http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/?id=2002/reviews/lance_pedal
 

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drewmcg said:
Backing off the allen bolt tension adjuster on each pedal a half-turn and a shot of WD40 or silicone spray on the platform and on the surface of the cleat might take care of it . . . Shimano's evidently have slightly less float (3 degrees vs. 4.5 or 9). But they're easier to walk in (although Keo has a new cleat with rubber bits to improve the coffeeshop shuffle).

I wonder if Lance's alleged preference for Shimano pedals weren't dictated by sponsorship deals . . . .http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/?id=2002/reviews/lance_pedal
PD7401 and PD6401 (Dura Ace and Ultegra, respectively) pedals have no float built in...you can use the Red Delta cleats on them to achieve float. The PD1056 and PD6402 (105 and latter version of Ultegra), on the other hand, have a setting for float on them.
 

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RC28 said:
PD7401 and PD6401 (Dura Ace and Ultegra, respectively) pedals have no float built in...you can use the Red Delta cleats on them to achieve float. The PD1056 and PD6402 (105 and latter version of Ultegra), on the other hand, have a setting for float on them.
I think the pair I have is one of these (old Shimano, no float). But I continue to use the orig cleats. I could not find any replacements. An LBS recommended the Red Delta but I found it was a sloppy fit. Yeah, you got float, but you needed it because nothing lined up properly.
 

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XR4Ti said:
I think the pair I have is one of these (old Shimano, no float). But I continue to use the orig cleats. I could not find any replacements. An LBS recommended the Red Delta but I found it was a sloppy fit. Yeah, you got float, but you needed it because nothing lined up properly.
The original cleat that came ( at least with the 7401 and 6401 versions) was almost a perfectly triangular Delta compatible cleat, very similar to the cleat that used to come in the 7400 and 6400 toeclip pedals (the ones that are mostly used on the track). The truth is, the pedal is perfectly compatible with the Look Delta cleat which is what I've been using on all the ones I have ever since my original cleats wore out...about 15 years ago. :)

Remember that those days, Shimano licensed the Look design so the cleats had to be compatible. I personally use black delta cleats as I've never liked float on my pedals . The delta cleats work beautifully.
 

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RC28 said:
The original cleat that came ( at least with the 7401 and 6401 versions) was almost a perfectly triangular Delta compatible cleat, very similar to the cleat that used to come in the 7400 and 6400 toeclip pedals (the ones that are mostly used on the track). The truth is, the pedal is perfectly compatible with the Look Delta cleat which is what I've been using on all the ones I have ever since my original cleats wore out...about 15 years ago. :)

Remember that those days, Shimano licensed the Look design so the cleats had to be compatible. I personally use black delta cleats as I've never liked float on my pedals . The delta cleats work beautifully.
So after reading this, I had to go check what model I had. It's the PD-6402 (Ultegra). I can only assume it's the same cleat profile as yours, but there was no way I could get zero float with the black. And the red was so floaty, but given it was the similar basic profile as the black, and both were different than my OEM Shimano cleat, they did not fit as well. Just because Shimano took a license on the design doesn't mean they didn't change it. But it worked for you -- unless there was a profile change in the 6402; it just would not work for me. I seem to recall the Delta clip bumps were a little wider than the Shimano. And believe me, if I could have made it work, I would have gladly taken them than ride on my old beat-up cleats.
 

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All Look pedals, even the rebranded Shimano pedals of the early 90s, Keos, and Delta/ARC pedals use the cleats to control float. Those old Shimano pedals are Look pedals, just with Shimano's name on them. The color of the cleat determines float: red for 9 degrees, grey for 5 degrees, and black for no float.
 

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RC28 said:
However, this knob is VERY easy to snap off, leaving one to adjust what's left of the knob with needle nose pliers or something similar. My guess is that your 6402s are set to the float setting which, combined with Red cleats (which have float built in) provided you with excessive float. Now, even if you left the setting in the fixed position and used black cleats, there is some inherent side to side movement in that "lip" because of the locking mechanism. In this aspect, the 6401 and 7401, which have a full solid "claw" (and yes , I hate that term) are far superior.
Well, it's pretty hard to argue with that excellent post from RC28, but I'll try :D

I have them set to the fixed position (and of course I just noticed I lost one of those knobs!). But the more I think of it, maybe I never tried the black cleats (hey, it was several years ago). It's likely the LBS only had the red ones. But I can say that with the OEM Shimano cleats, there is zero s-s movement in fixed position.
 

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XR4Ti said:
So after reading this, I had to go check what model I had. It's the PD-6402 (Ultegra). I can only assume it's the same cleat profile as yours, but there was no way I could get zero float with the black. And the red was so floaty, but given it was the similar basic profile as the black, and both were different than my OEM Shimano cleat, they did not fit as well. Just because Shimano took a license on the design doesn't mean they didn't change it. But it worked for you -- unless there was a profile change in the 6402; it just would not work for me. I seem to recall the Delta clip bumps were a little wider than the Shimano. And believe me, if I could have made it work, I would have gladly taken them than ride on my old beat-up cleats.
Ahhh, you had 6402s. That explains a bit. First, let's go through the pedal differences and you'll understand why it's probably not working that well for you.

First, the 7401 and 6401 (DA and Ultegra first generation clipless): Both of these shared the same body but the spindle and bearings were different. also, the DA was painted Gray while the Ultegra is white. Now, both of them have a solid, for lack of a better word, retention "claw" for the cleat, just like the rest of the Look pedals. Believe me , these WILL work with the Look Delta cleats, and will do so flawlessly. All the pros that rode these used Look Delta cleats (just stick to Look don't go using VP or other knock off brand cleats and you'll be fine). .Lance, Johan Musseuw, etc all used Look cleats with them.

Here's a pic I found (actually this pic shows the original cleats, which as I mentioned in my earlier post where similar in some aspects to the ones from the 6400 and 7400 pedals). These cleats actually incorporated a ridge towards the back end that was used to line up the new cleats with the recess in the cleat that would hold the older toeclip pedals in place( to help to match cleat alignment, if you were coming from toeclips).

https://www.troc-velo.com/images/img0n94255.jpg

Now, on to the 6402 and 1056. The 1056 shared the same body but the retention claw was different. In the 1056 (105), the claw was split in two and there was a selection crew that allowed you to choose simple release or multi release. The multi release function was to allow clipless newbies to be able to release in an easier manner, as the split claw would release easier. See this pic:

https://i22.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/38/be/de1a_1.JPG

6402s (which were on Musseuws Paris Roubaix winning Colnago and, sadly, on Fabio Casartelli's bike, offered a similar mechanism, but in their case, the claw was not split in two, but rather the little retention "edge" of the claw could float or remain fixed. This was also selectable via a knob in the back of the claw. See this pic (it's the thin gray edge that grabs the cleat, the claw is black except for this edge):

https://www.ever-win.net/pedal/pd6402.jpg

However, this knob is VERY easy to snap off, leaving one to adjust what's left of the knob with needle nose pliers or something similar. My guess is that your 6402s are set to the float setting which, combined with Red cleats (which have float built in) provided you with excessive float. Now, even if you left the setting in the fixed position and used black cleats, there is some inherent side to side movement in that "lip" because of the locking mechanism. In this aspect, the 6401 and 7401, which have a full solid "claw" (and yes , I hate that term) are far superior.

A couple of more things: Look actually made the bodies for Shimano IIRC and then Shimano provided the spindles and bearings.

So how do I know all of this? I've been an avid user of 7401s ever since they became available in 1988 (it was a pain to find them when all the Lance wannabes wanted one in the earlier part of this decade).I'm currently running 3 sets of 7401s on my road, fixie and track bike and a set of 6401s on my stationary trainer bike. Additionally, I have at least 4 sets of PD1056 , 3 of the 7401s , 2 of the 6401s and 2 of the 6402s91 set with a snapped off knob) in storage right now (NO, they're not for sale).The only time I used the provided cleats was when the pedals were new...many,many,many years ago. So trust me, Look Delta cleats WILL work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
RC28, since your an avid user of the old Shimano PD's did you ever hear what the reason was that Lance used these pedals for years after they were out of production? Do you think they are superior to the LOOK arc pedals?

RC28 said:
Ahhh, you had 6402s. That explains a bit. First, let's go through the pedal differences and you'll understand why it's probably not working that well for you.

First, the 7401 and 6401 (DA and Ultegra first generation clipless): Both of these shared the same body but the spindle and bearings were different. also, the DA was painted Gray while the Ultegra is white. Now, both of them have a solid, for lack of a better word, retention "claw" for the cleat, just like the rest of the Look pedals. Believe me , these WILL work with the Look Delta cleats, and will do so flawlessly. All the pros that rode these used Look Delta cleats (just stick to Look don't go using VP or other knock off brand cleats and you'll be fine). .Lance, Johan Musseuw, etc all used Look cleats with them.

Here's a pic I found (actually this pic shows the original cleats, which as I mentioned in my earlier post where similar in some aspects to the ones from the 6400 and 7400 pedals). These cleats actually incorporated a ridge towards the back end that was used to line up the new cleats with the recess in the cleat that would hold the older toeclip pedals in place( to help to match cleat alignment, if you were coming from toeclips).

https://www.troc-velo.com/images/img0n94255.jpg

Now, on to the 6402 and 1056. The 1056 shared the same body but the retention claw was different. In the 1056 (105), the claw was split in two and there was a selection crew that allowed you to choose simple release or multi release. The multi release function was to allow clipless newbies to be able to release in an easier manner, as the split claw would release easier. See this pic:

https://i22.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/38/be/de1a_1.JPG

6402s (which were on Musseuws Paris Roubaix winning Colnago and, sadly, on Fabio Casartelli's bike, offered a similar mechanism, but in their case, the claw was not split in two, but rather the little retention "edge" of the claw could float or remain fixed. This was also selectable via a knob in the back of the claw. See this pic (it's the thin gray edge that grabs the cleat, the claw is black except for this edge):

https://www.ever-win.net/pedal/pd6402.jpg

However, this knob is VERY easy to snap off, leaving one to adjust what's left of the knob with needle nose pliers or something similar. My guess is that your 6402s are set to the float setting which, combined with Red cleats (which have float built in) provided you with excessive float. Now, even if you left the setting in the fixed position and used black cleats, there is some inherent side to side movement in that "lip" because of the locking mechanism. In this aspect, the 6401 and 7401, which have a full solid "claw" (and yes , I hate that term) are far superior.

A couple of more things: Look actually made the bodies for Shimano IIRC and then Shimano provided the spindles and bearings.

So how do I know all of this? I've been an avid user of 7401s ever since they became available in 1988 (it was a pain to find them when all the Lance wannabes wanted one in the earlier part of this decade).I'm currently running 3 sets of 7401s on my road, fixie and track bike and a set of 6401s on my stationary trainer bike. Additionally, I have at least 4 sets of PD1056 , 3 of the 7401s , 2 of the 6401s and 2 of the 6402s91 set with a snapped off knob) in storage right now (NO, they're not for sale).The only time I used the provided cleats was when the pedals were new...many,many,many years ago. So trust me, Look Delta cleats WILL work.
 

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XR4Ti said:
Well, it's pretty hard to argue with that excellent post from RC28, but I'll try :D

I have them set to the fixed position (and of course I just noticed I lost one of those knobs!). But the more I think of it, maybe I never tried the black cleats (hey, it was several years ago). It's likely the LBS only had the red ones. But I can say that with the OEM Shimano cleats, there is zero s-s movement in fixed position.

No worries :)

See, I told you those things break off!!

Most of my memories of the old cleats have kind of fused with the 98% use of Look cleats with them so I can't really help. But, like I mentioned before, with genuine Look black Delta cleats, I get zero movement on the 6401s and 7401s. On the 6402s I get a bit of movement, even in the locked position, but I would assume as you mention, that the original cleat was a perfect fit.
 

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High Gear said:
RC28, since your an avid user of the old Shimano PD's did you ever hear what the reason was that Lance used these pedals for years after they were out of production? Do you think they are superior to the LOOK arc pedals?
Well, I'm a pretty big fan of the PDs, not necessarily a Lance fan BUT I do remember that between '92-'95 he used (beside the PDs) the original road SPD pedals (I believe during 1993) and also the Look Arcs or Carbons or Carbo Pros (during 1992 when he was racing for Motorola and the US National Team...wearing the Skittles jersey).
See here for a pic of Lance using those Look pedals:
https://www.bike-zone.com/photos/2008/news/dec08/dec05newsastana/ArmstrongNissan92PhSpt.jpg

The thing is that during the mid- 90s, pretty much the only offering from Shimano were the dreaded SPD-R pedals. And additionally, Lance was probably the highest profile rider in PDs, but Michele Bartoli, Johan Musseuw, Fabio Casartelli and I believe Andrea Tafi all used them, so he was far from the sole user of these.

But to answer your question, IMHO yes these are (especially the 7401s) superior to any other Look (delta style) pedal. Crisper engagement, super strong and reliable retention mechanism, very superior bearings that need pretty much NO maintenance. Only bad things are that they weigh a bit more than the more modern Look pedals (around 430g if memory serves me right) and , for some reason, once you get a chip in the paint, the rest of the pedal chips quite easily. I would think that these good points were the reason all these riders used them so much (and the fact that SPD-R pedals sucked!) :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well, I'm using the Keo's right now, going from the Shimano SPD-SL's and before that LOOK Arc's. Being off the bike all Winter and clipping back into the Keo's made me relise that the float does not feel the same as my old LOOK's. It's almost like the pivot point is not in the same good old place and it has more drag on the rotation. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. But I did use the old style LOOK's for over ten years before I started trying other pedals, Shimano,Time and so on. I think I'll take the chance and put a few pairs of my Keo's on ebay and try to acquire a newer set of the Dura-Ace's.

RC28 said:
Well, I'm a pretty big fan of the PDs, not necessarily a Lance fan BUT I do remember that between '92-'95 he used (beside the PDs) the original road SPD pedals (I believe during 1993) and also the Look Arcs or Carbons or Carbo Pros (during 1992 when he was racing for Motorola and the US National Team...wearing the Skittles jersey).
See here for a pic of Lance using those Look pedals:
https://www.bike-zone.com/photos/2008/news/dec08/dec05newsastana/ArmstrongNissan92PhSpt.jpg

The thing is that during the mid- 90s, pretty much the only offering from Shimano were the dreaded SPD-R pedals. And additionally, Lance was probably the highest profile rider in PDs, but Michele Bartoli, Johan Musseuw, Fabio Casartelli and I believe Andrea Tafi all used them, so he was far from the sole user of these.

But to answer your question, IMHO yes these are (especially the 7401s) superior to any other Look (delta style) pedal. Crisper engagement, super strong and reliable retention mechanism, very superior bearings that need pretty much NO maintenance. Only bad things are that they weigh a bit more than the more modern Look pedals (around 430g if memory serves me right) and , for some reason, once you get a chip in the paint, the rest of the pedal chips quite easily. I would think that these good points were the reason all these riders used them so much (and the fact that SPD-R pedals sucked!) :D
 

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I have a pair of PD7401s and a pair of PD6402s for sale. Both are mechanically very sound but both show signs of use. The Dura Ace 7401s are in a bit better condition than the Ultegra 6402s. I have a pair of red cleats in decent condition that go with each pair of pedals. Prices will be fair and honest for these pedals to find a new home. Email me back channel if you are interested.

Paul in NW FL.
 
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