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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking to upgrade the drive train on a recently purchased Cannondale CAAD 10. At the time of the payments I had not known about the CAAD 12 until l had to make a decision :-/

I have a Hollowgram SiSl crankset that will be mounted soon and would love to replace the RS11s while I'm at it, switch the cassette to an Ultegra 6800 and upgrade the chain as well.

The Wheelset that I have come down too are these. I'll do my best to share what o already know but any insight or tips would be cool :)

Mavic Open Pro - Ultegra 6800 hubs
Classic
Reliable
Seems to be the industry standard for basic yet robust wheel upgrades. Yet it is outdated and seems to be obsolete.

H+Son Archetype - Ultegra 6800 hubs
Modern
Wider
Cornering due to wide rim?
Slightly heavier then open pro
Style
When it comes to mid weight riders (160+185) does the wider profile really make this a better option then the Open Pros?

Ultegra 6800 Wheelset
Light
Reliable
Uses the heavy 6800 hubs yet keeps the weight to an acceptable 1600 grams
Great hubs but are the hoops any better or worse then the two competitors?
Live in Ohio so hills are predictable..

Lastly if I can find some
Used set of RS81 for a bargain price
Lightest out of the bunch
Most riders can't recommend them enough
May not be able to find a used set.
 

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no contest, get the Archetype. It is a much better rim than the Open Pro. I have both. At your weight you could run DT Revolutions instead of Competition spokes and make up most of the weight difference there. I have run Mich PRO 4 Endurance and Conti 4000 in 25 mm on both rims. The wide rim offers a better ride. The Archetype also has a better finish and was easy to build up. If you order from Brandon at Bike Hub store the H Plus rim is probably cheaper too.
 

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I would choose the Archetype from the custom build options. It's quality has been consistent. Can't say the same for the Pro of later times.
The Archetype/ultegra combo is a bombproof all-around wheel set. I have and use both with 6700 and 6800. Don't overthink the difference the wider rim makes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I would choose the Archetype from the custom build options. It's quality has been consistent. Can't say the same for the Pro of later times.
At the end of the day I'll try not to argue the fact that the Galaxy S7 smart phone is better then the Galaxy S3 from years ago
But damn the Galaxy S3 was a classic and a perfect example of pinnacle technology and a mile stone for computer programmers.

What I'm getting at is
Say you got your hands on a well built Open Pro and paired it to an equally consistent well built Archetype. Is the Archetype still in some people's opinion better?

This is driving me nuts!
As a newbie I think I made the decision to pick the Ultegra 6800 hubs because it's reliable, strong, heavy yes; but the weight of this hub will be centered in the frame not outbound on the rotational weight of the rim.

To pick the 6800 hub so I can start mentally writing down points of reference. So maybe down the road when and of I pick an underdog hub like the Aivee SR5 that I will have a solid remembrance of what a good hub feels like first.

With that said. My heart says Open Pro and am exhausting the possibility of what if I got a well built OP before the pragmatics take over and really should look towards something like the Archetype.

I understand the repetition of this exhausting rim. But at this point maybe the phycological advantage of having something "classic" under my feet will prove to offer better performance?

Argh man it was suppose to be a simple upgrade!
I'm not spending $1500 on a Carbon rim!! :)
 

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If the Open Pro was invented today it would be laughed out of the industry. It's fine, but without history and tradition, no on in their right mind would choose it based an an objective compare to many other rims out there.

It's to wheels what toe straps are to pedals. Works fine, but it's day has passed.
 

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Try this on for size... Look how many reports there are of Open Pros cracking... THen try to find one of a Archetype failing
 

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I built myself a set of Dura Ace 9000 + Archetypes a little less than two years ago and I'm very happy with them. The rims are solid. The feel should be really similar to Ultegra + Archetypes and I wonder if I'd actually be able to tell that I had more spokes if I had Ultegra instead. :)
 

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At the end of the day I'll try not to argue the fact that the Galaxy S7 smart phone is better then the Galaxy S3 from years ago
But damn the Galaxy S3 was a classic and a perfect example of pinnacle technology and a mile stone for computer programmers.
And it doesn't catch fire either. :D

What I'm getting at is
Say you got your hands on a well built Open Pro and paired it to an equally consistent well built Archetype. Is the Archetype still in some people's opinion better?
Yes, the Archetype is a better rim, hands down. If you do a search of Mavic Open Pro, you will see multiple quality control issues such as cracking around spoke holes, rattling eyelets and slag by the joint. After you read this excellent rim review, it will seem like a no-brainer:

Alloy Rim Roundup - Fairwheel Bikes Blog

This is driving me nuts!
As a newbie I think I made the decision to pick the Ultegra 6800 hubs because it's reliable, strong, heavy yes; but the weight of this hub will be centered in the frame not outbound on the rotational weight of the rim.
In the grand scheme of things, you won't even notice the weight difference between an Ultegra hub and a boutique hub. If you think the lighter hubs will allow you to pull ahead of those friends who toasted you on that last hill, you will be disappointed.

Nor do I think there is any value in getting the lighter and more expensive Revolution spokes vs. the Competition spokes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
The Archetype with Shimano 6800 hubs weigh in close to 2000 grams...
Not exactly light here...
My current Wheelset is 2000grams (RS11) although overall performance is what I'm looking for, saving some weight would be cool.

Anyone have experience with the Novatec A171/F171 hubs?
You can get the Archetype laced to these hubs, with the select spokes it comes in at a respectable 1650grams (after upgrading tires and tubes I'm looking at about a pound saving from the almost boat anchor 18 pound CAAD 10)

At this point is it worth considering a set of Shimano 6800 wheels? They come in at about 1600grams but the hoops won't be Archetypes. Which also makes you wonder just how light the rims and spokes are on that Wheelset. The 6800 hub is carrying some weight.

Edit: the Hollowgram Crankset, Ultegra Cluster and chainupgrade is going to be responsible for about one half to two thirds a pound at least (300gram saving from the crankset alone).
Again not that I would like to be a weight weenie. But if the 1900+gram Archetype/Ultegra isn't chosen and a 1650gram Archetype/Novatec is possible. I'm looking at a solid pound with maybe an extra quarter pound of shaved weight. Possibly bringing the CAAD 10 into the 16 pounder weight range.
 

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You could also go with an Ultegra hub and HED Belgium C2 rims. The HED C2 is a good quality rim, is wide, and it looks good. The Archetype is an offshoot of the HED C2.
I built myself a pair of HED C2s with Ultegra 6800 hubs. They are awesome wheels! However, the HED C2s are pricey for some. I highly recommend them if you have the $$.

The Archetype with Shimano 6800 hubs weigh in close to 2000 grams...
Not exactly light here...
My current Wheelset is 2000grams (RS11)
Not true. Each one of these is closer to around 1850g.

Anyone have experience with the Novatec A171/F171 hubs?
You can get the Archetype laced to these hubs, with the select spokes it comes in at a respectable 1650grams
If lighter weight is really that important to you and you're willing to spend more money to get less weight, you can achieve around 1650g with the Archetypes laced to Dura-Ace 9000 hubs which is most certainly a better quality hub than Novatecs. Only you can decide whether it's worth $250-300 more to save 200g.

At this point is it worth considering a set of Shimano 6800 wheels? They come in at about 1600grams but the hoops won't be Archetypes. Which also makes you wonder just how light the rims and spokes are on that Wheelset. The 6800 hub is carrying some weight.
The weight spec on these is actually 1640g, so again, it's only a little more than a 200g weight savings. If you're not a clyde, the Ultegra 6800 wheelset is a good bang for the buck:

Shimano WH-6800 Ultegra Tubeless Wheelst > Components > Wheels > Road Wheels | Jenson USA

If you are a heavier rider, I don't recommend them due to their low spoke count of 16 front / 20 rear. I also don't recommend them if you will be doing longer rides in rural areas away from cell service. Why? If a spoke breaks on a 24 spoke or higher wheel, I can adjust adjacent spokes and get the wheel true enough to get home. On a spoke count less than that, I will be walking or calling for a ride.

One last thing to note is that the Shimano 6800 wheels are a conventional width of 15mm internal. So you will not reap the advantages of a wider 17mm Archetype or HED C2.
 

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I've done several builds with Archetypes and Bitex hubs from BHS. The hubs are at least as well regarded as Novatecs.

Rims 2 x 470 = 940
Hubs superlight 79 + 210 = 289
Spokes, Lasers say 52 @ 4.5 = 234
Nipples Alloy 52 @ 0.35 = 18

940+289+234+18 = 1,481 g

A nice strong, light and reliable build.
 

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At the end of the day I'll try not to argue the fact that the Galaxy S7 smart phone is better then the Galaxy S3 from years ago
But damn the Galaxy S3 was a classic and a perfect example of pinnacle technology and a mile stone for computer programmers.
I just ditched my S3 this summer. It was running Marshmallow at the time and I've since heard your can put Nougat on it. Still use it for testing apps.

So back to wheels. Are you sure you can run the H+Son Archetype (23mm) on your CAAD 10 with the tires you want and have enough clearance? Earlier this year I was looking at 6800 hubs with Belgium C2 rims (same 23mm) and end up going with DT Swiss RR440 rims (21mm) over clearance concerns. Not trying to sway you from the Archetypes but just making sure you have really thought about clearance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I built myself a pair of HED C2s with Ultegra 6800 hubs. They are awesome wheels! However, the HED C2s are pricey for some. I highly recommend them if you have the $$.
Over the budget. I'd consider Pacanti rims or also enter some Zipps, higher end Mavics, Williams, etc etc. There is a price point I'm not trying to breach where at a certain dollar point I'd spend the extra $200-350 to bring myself up to another platform.

If lighter weight is really that important to you and you're willing to spend more money to get less weight, you can achieve around 1650g with the Archetypes laced to Dura-Ace 9000 hubs which is most certainly a better quality hub than Novatecs. Only you can decide whether it's worth $250-300 more to save 200g.
The Novatec A171/F171/Archetype combo is about $360 shipped. Dura Ace/Archetype is about $749 So you could own two Novatec/Archetype for one Dura Ace/Archetype.
Considering its half the cost what are the disadvantages of the Novatec A171/F171?? I hear they are not sealed 100% but this can be cured with new bearings and a quick reseal?


If you are a heavier rider, I don't recommend them due to their low spoke count of 16 front / 20 rear. I also don't recommend them if you will be doing longer rides in rural areas away from cell service. Why? If a spoke breaks on a 24 spoke or higher wheel, I can adjust adjacent spokes and get the wheel true enough to get home. On a spoke count less than that, I will be walking or calling for a ride.
I just noticed that the Ultegra Hubs on the 6800 have totally different flanges and spoke count. Anyone know if you can buy the 6800-WH hubs alone??
I feel like Shimano just put a Dura Ace hub on cheap hoops and labeled the housing Ultegra just to front the competition and offer something good now.
 

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So back to wheels. Are you sure you can run the H+Son Archetype (23mm) on your CAAD 10 with the tires you want and have enough clearance? Earlier this year I was looking at 6800 hubs with Belgium C2 rims (same 23mm) and end up going with DT Swiss RR440 rims (21mm) over clearance concerns. Not trying to sway you from the Archetypes but just making sure you have really thought about clearance.

Very good point. Measure twice, buy once.
 

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Considering its half the cost what are the disadvantages of the Novatec A171/F171??
With a quick Google search, you just may find out:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=novatec+a171+review

I just noticed that the Ultegra Hubs on the 6800 have totally different flanges and spoke count.
Yes and yes this is true. The Ultegra hubs sold as hubs are only available in 32 and 36 hole. The hubs on the 6800-WH are 16 and 20 hole. Their flanges are different too - one takes j-bend spokes, the other takes straight pull spokes.

Anyone know if you can buy the 6800-WH hubs alone??
No. The 6800-WH is a proprietary wheelset. This is one disadvantage of going this route. You cannot get individual parts. If anything goes bad, they're basically a throw-away.

I feel like Shimano just put a Dura Ace hub on cheap hoops and labeled the housing Ultegra just to front the competition and offer something good now.
No, these are NOT Dura-Ace hubs on these. They are probably more like the hubs on your existing RS-11s.
 

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Wow, that's light. Out of curiosity what kind of mileage have you put on those things? any issues.
Mileage hard to say since I have a few bikes and don't record mileage. I've been using the oldest set a couple of years now with zero issues. I'm a clyde at 200#. There's plenty of recommendations for these hubs out there.
 

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Mileage hard to say since I have a few bikes and don't record mileage. I've been using the oldest set a couple of years now with zero issues. I'm a clyde at 200#. There's plenty of recommendations for these hubs out there.
thanks. At that good price just knowing you got a couple years is pretty good.
My one flirtation with super light, yet not cheap, hubs went south around 10K miles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I've done several builds with Archetypes and Bitex hubs from BHS. The hubs are at least as well regarded as Novatecs.

Rims 2 x 470 = 940
Hubs superlight 79 + 210 = 289
Spokes, Lasers say 52 @ 4.5 = 234
Nipples Alloy 52 @ 0.35 = 18

940+289+234+18 = 1,481 g

A nice strong, light and reliable build.
A definite possibility. I do have a thought about the Bitex hubs in question.

Are they too light? Right now I'm living in Ohio where it's a pretty predictable flat each day. When these hubs are spun up to speed will they be overly aggressive demanding you to press forward?

A great sensation on race day but after my first or third training ride I may grow tired of the idea of having to keep the rotational mass moving.

The RS11s are horrible at acceleration and can be heavy on the legs to keep in motion so anything really is an upgrade.

But will the Bitex be overly aggressive almost making them a climbing hub? Or am I worried to much about rotational mass and should focus more on the rim for that subject?

The weight savings between the Novatec and Bitex is about 100 grams. Should I be worried about the Bitex requiring more effort to keep spinning? Or is that not a worry?
 
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