Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
BS the DC
Joined
·
1,426 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Did they finally find the bad guys? Is the whole peleton doping? What do you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
re guilty/innocent

you can bet T-Mobile/CSC didn't exclude Ullrich/Basso without some hard evidence of their guilt. The Spanish authorities handed over documents-we know there is physical evidence (blood samples likely matched to control samples provided by race officials), emails, phone logs, video monitoring of the clinic, and there must have been enough of that to make a pretty airtight case against them-you don't build your season around an event, dump millions of dollars of sponsorship and not defend your rider unless there's damning evidence.

Odds are they are going to end up with a 4 year ban-Ullrich will never race a bike again, Basso-who knows-he's probably more concerned now with whether he's going to lose his Giro title and whatever endorsements he has in Italy
 

·
I heart team Zissou!
Joined
·
2,954 Posts
KenB said:
In Europe, apparently, you're guilty until proven innocent. I kinda like the way we do it here in the States better.
This is not a penal case yet and thus "guilt" vs. "innocence" has nothing to do with it. The ProTour teams have signed an contract w/ the ProTour Licensing commission (aka - UCI) whereby any rider under investigation in a doping case will be sidelined by his team pending the outcome of the investigation. The withdrawal of the Puerto-implicated riders shows that in Europe we believe in the binding nature of a contract, just as you do in the States. The riders were all aware of the nature of the Protour agreement and have signed off to it in their own employment contracts with their team management. I think that you would find that there is no real difference between what is done here in Europe and what you do in the States in the treatment of such contractual agreements and so I would be surprised if, in this particular instance, you would <i>"like the way we do it here in the States better"</i>

A+

Philippe
 

·
I heart team Zissou!
Joined
·
2,954 Posts
dlbcx said:
You're right; they operate under Napoleonic code. In the States and England, the legal system is based on English common law.
I'm grumpy today so...

News Flash: England is both politically and geographically in "Europe"

News Flash2: The Napoleonic code is the basis for the French legal system (and has contributed to the development of the legal system of a few neighbouring countries). France is only one country out of the 25 that form Europe. Thus it is really stretching it to say that "Europe" operates under the Napoleonic code. I think this statement might come as news to such countries as Austria, Malta, Germany, Italy, Moldova, Finland, the Czech Republic, etc, etc, ... you get the picture.

Now back more important things like: can a repentent doper from Scotland via Honk Kong grab the yellow today? Enquiring minds want to know!

;-)

Philippe
 

·
BS the DC
Joined
·
1,426 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
You guys are right. It does seem like they are guilty until proven innocent and that doesn't seem right to me either. BUT ... it seems like there is a fair bit of evidence against them. For discussions sake, let's just say they are guilty. My question: Is this just a select few riders or is their a large group of riders in the peleton doping or is just about every rider doing some type of doping just to be able to hang in the pack?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,514 Posts
Louisiana also is based on the civil code rather than common law so the whole state is best abandoned to the sea.

But no, none of them are clean. I think Hampsten might have been but after EPO arrived there was really no choice if you wanted to win.

Euskaltel has failed countless dope controls but there are none of their riders on the list so there must be at least one other large operation somewhere in Spain.

Then there are all the Ferrari clients that weren't part of the current scandal. That includes most of Discovery and quite a few others.

Plus there are still Cecchini guys who weren't nabbed with the rest this time, like Thomas Dekker.
 

·
BikerFox Wannabe
Joined
·
696 Posts
This isn't a criminal case....

KenB said:
In Europe, apparently, you're guilty until proven innocent. I kinda like the way we do it here in the States better.
...in regards to Ullrich's team suspending him.

Get with the facts guys. There is a Pro Tour charter that every rider signs that stipulates what the consequences of being seriously implicated in a major doping scandle are.
 

·
BikerFox Wannabe
Joined
·
696 Posts
philippec said:
This is not a penal case yet and thus "guilt" vs. "innocence" has nothing to do with it. The ProTour teams have signed an contract w/ the ProTour Licensing commission (aka - UCI) whereby any rider under investigation in a doping case In Europe will be sidelined by his team pending the outcome of the investigation. The withdrawal of the Puerto-implicated riders shows that in Europe, we believe in the binding nature of a contract, just as you do in the States. The riders were all aware of the nature of the Protour agreement and have signed off to it in their own employment contracts with their team management. I think that you would find that there is no real difference between what is done here in Europe and what you do in the States in the treatment of this contractual agreement and so I would be surprised if, in this particular instance, you would <i>"like the way we do it here in the States better"</i>

A+

Philippe
Philippe, you are a consistant voice of reason here on the forums. I agree with most everyting you post. And you are better informed than myself in the details of most of these matters and take the time to state your point more clearly than I do.
Thanks for your input.
 
G

·
I would think that there are some riders who don't dope, either because they find it offensive, or fear being caught, or actually have respect for their own health. I fear that clean cyclists are the minority though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,561 Posts
terzo rene said:
Euskaltel has failed countless dope controls but there are none of their riders on the list so there must be at least one other large operation somewhere in Spain.
Euskatel hasn't been worth **** since they fired their docs over a failed drug test a few years ago. Maybe it's taken them this long to get a new program up and running, Mayo was showing the first sign of form in years. People forget Zubeldia finished 4th in the Tour a few years ago. Could be a real resurgence this year?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,561 Posts
AJL said:
I would think that there are some riders who don't dope, either because they find it offensive, or fear being caught, or actually have respect for their own health. I fear that clean cyclists are the minority though.
Even at the height of the doping, Bassons was a clean rider on Festina. I think there may have been one other. The sport has to be cleaner now than it was. But as I've said before, we may be at a weird point where now someone willing to dope full bore, like Guiterrez, can actually get a leg up on most of the peloton and achieve a big result. Alternatively the transfusions seem to be quite expensive compared to the few thousand dollars to dope with EPO. So we may also be at a point where big riders with big salaries have recourse to a method unavailable to your average domestique.

Of course, the Festina scandal was supposed to be the wake up call, and look where we are now 8 years later. I think it's incrediably naive to think most of the guys if not all of them who will be riding for the GC aren't up to some sort of shenanigans.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
*sigh*

well here is to hoping not everyone that wins is on drugs... guess we can always root for the guys that come in dead last. i need to read up on how cyclists are tested for enhancers. must be cost prohibitive to do complete drug testing both for sponsors and racing committees since it seems rampant and continual.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,561 Posts
rroselli said:
well here is to hoping not everyone that wins is on drugs... guess we can always root for the guys that come in dead last. i need to read up on how cyclists are tested for enhancers. must be cost prohibitive to do complete drug testing both for sponsors and racing committees since it seems rampant and continual.
There are two issues. Yes it costs a lot, a bill footed by the race organizer unless things have changed. And also the tests have limited effectiveness or there are strategies to beat them. The homologous blood doping test is new and to date has only caught Santi Perez and Hamilton, I don't believe an autologous blood doping test is being used yet, and the EPO urine test has a limited window of detection following an injection. HGH is still undetectable, I think the same may be true for IGF-1. Forget about the anabolic and corticosteroid hormones. These must be easy to cover up b/c these police affairs are always finding them yet riders rarely fail a test for them. Then there are the blood "expanders" to make sure the hematocrits stay under 50%.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,427 Posts
I'd be willing to guess..

AJL said:
I would think that there are some riders who don't dope, either because they find it offensive, or fear being caught, or actually have respect for their own health. I fear that clean cyclists are the minority though.

that a lot of pro riders do not inject themselves with banned substances or partake in blood transfusion tactics...BUT almost all of them are doing something to change their body chemistry...high alt. tents...hema. increases to just below the allowable limits using legal means. (to name just two). it would impossible to perform at those levels without some sort of "help" on a regular basis.....
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top