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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Armstrong should be on a plane to Strasbourg ASAP; even after a year off he'd be the favorite of this year's TdF with all the big boys out.

Anyway - what does the latest scandal out of Spain due for LA's reputation? One of my buddies thought it was bad, just by implication - 'some of the biggest names in cycling were implicated, including Basso & Ullrich, so Armstrong also had to be doping'.

Could we make the case that it actually helps clear his name? Think about it - the authorities were able to find evidence that, among others, Basso, Ullrich, and Mancebo, some of the biggest names in the sport, were doping. This makes it clear that even if you don't test positive, they are still able to catch you - there's just too much of a trail. Yet, they haven't found anything on Armstrong, probably the most tested and closely watched cyclist in the history of the sport.

What do you guys think?
 

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The interesting thing to me is whether those caught are now going to spill the beans about Armstrong-they must be really pissed that they got caught now while Armstrong rides off into the sunset. Realistically Ullrich will never touch the bike competitively again-he's getting old, has always been unmotivated, and with this disgrace will just walk away. What's keeping him now from lashing out against Armstrong?
 

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Me thinks armstrong didn't need to goto Spain but had his own doctors working for him.


surista said:
Armstrong should be on a plane to Strasbourg ASAP; even after a year off he'd be the favorite of this year's TdF with all the big boys out.

Anyway - what does the latest scandal out of Spain due for LA's reputation? One of my buddies thought it was bad, just by implication - 'some of the biggest names in cycling were implicated, including Basso & Ullrich, so Armstrong also had to be doping'.

Could we make the case that it actually helps clear his name? Think about it - the authorities were able to find evidence that, among others, Basso, Ullrich, and Mancebo, some of the biggest names in the sport, were doping. This makes it clear that even if you don't test positive, they are still able to catch you - there's just too much of a trail. Yet, they haven't found anything on Armstrong, probably the most tested and closely watched cyclist in the history of the sport.

What do you guys think?
 

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awwww horseapples!!
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No Lance, Please!

phil-bianchi said:
dude, what about lances epo blood samples from 99? it didn't hold up in a court but facts are facts.

People, Bas, Tour-Time New Posters.....lets all just Shut the [email protected]#k up about Lance, please...lets move on, there are much more relevant current doping problems, with people who will actually make some sort of impact in the cycling calendar.

Maybe we need a "re-hashing old lance issues" forum, maximum previous posts: 20.

Don't make me use the bad post button.
 

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I am finding it harder and harder to believe that there is such a thing as a "clean" pro. My gut feeling is that to compete at that level, you have to be on "something". Good eating habits and hard training just does not seem to do it no more.
 

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phil-bianchi said:
dude, what about lances epo blood samples from 99? it didn't hold up in a court but facts are facts.
Well, it didn't hold up in court because 'facts' might not be 'facts'. There was a letter on cyclingnews this morning comparing this incident to Dan Rather's humiliation. He kept insisting on 'facts', even as his sources were saying that it was a fabrication.

I'm not saying that those samples were clean, or that they were doctored. But the way things transpired, it was impossible to tell. That's why it fell out of court, and that's why we can't say it's 'fact' that Lance's '99 pee had EPO.
 

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awesometown said:
People, Bas, Tour-Time New Posters.....lets all just Shut the [email protected]#k up about Lance, please...lets move on, there are much more relevant current doping problems, with people who will actually make some sort of impact in the cycling calendar.

Maybe we need a "re-hashing old lance issues" forum, maximum previous posts: 20.

Don't make me use the bad post button.
dude read the title of the thread! "armstrong and the latest doping scandal" don't tell us to shut the f up about, the topic was started, and you joined in.

and danil... no i don't know for sure about lance but c'mon! you'd have to be pretty naive to belive he was clean after all has come to light including his epo samples.
 

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old timers on drugs

taar44 said:
I am finding it harder and harder to believe that there is such a thing as a "clean" pro. My gut feeling is that to compete at that level, you have to be on "something". Good eating habits and hard training just does not seem to do it no more.
who was the old timer, coppi? who's famous quote was "we sure don't do it on bread and water"
 

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awesome! the 6 degrees of LA is a doper game!

55-58 riders get busted and all you wanna do is somehow relate this to LA. You don't want to talk about the 58 involved noooooo, ya wanna somehow implicate someone who hasn't even been mentioned.I know, I know, this happened in Spain and he has a house there and Manolo Saiz says Venga alot and Venga is really close to Verga (which means d!ck) and we know LA is a d!ck who lives in Spain so voila, it's all about Lance.
For those of you following along, Scientists reviewing the procedures of the 99 test said it was all poppycock, garbage, it proved nothing, it didn't even establish a baseline.
Does this mean I think LA was clean? not necessarily, but when he gets popped legitimately then we can discuss, otherwise lets STFU and talk about those that actually have been popped.
re: LA I bet he's laughing his A$$ off. 7 years of being followed around, having his garbage rummaged through, his rooms snooped and nothing. He retires and the Tour gets hit with the biggest scandal ever.
 

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Never was such a thing...

taar44 said:
I am finding it harder and harder to believe that there is such a thing as a "clean" pro. My gut feeling is that to compete at that level, you have to be on "something". Good eating habits and hard training just does not seem to do it no more.
Read Paul Kimmage's book. Voight's 'Breaking The Chain'.

Drugs and doping have been in cycling since the beginning. It's just that the drugs and the application of PEDs have gotten much MUCH better in recent years.

So good eating habits and hard training were never ever ALWAYS enough for everyone...but perhaps in the 'old days' you could win some races clean. Or 'cleaner'...whatever that means.
 

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awesometown said:
People, Bas, Tour-Time New Posters.....lets all just Shut the [email protected]#k up about Lance, please...lets move on, there are much more relevant current doping problems, with people who will actually make some sort of impact in the cycling calendar.

Maybe we need a "re-hashing old lance issues" forum, maximum previous posts: 20.

Don't make me use the bad post button.
Lance is part of the current doping problem. He was doing the same thing - just never caught. Just like these guys - if it was for the Spanish authorties - Basso and Ulrich wouldn't of been caught.

If no one else was doing it - LA would of road away with a 25 minute victories last several years.

If American authorities would of found and busted Armstrongs doctor - then it would of been over for him too.
 

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awwww horseapples!!
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phil-bianchi said:
the only thing these protour guys do better than ride' is LIE!

I for one am absolutley disgusted with this whole affair!

Are you? Are you really disgusted by it? Your childhood heros all thrown to the wind? Don't take it so seriously, the only reason people are being strung up is because the WADA has decided to make cycling its [email protected]#ch. Doping in one form or another has always been part of the sport, and while I am glad that we may see an end to the era of one-man domination; I see little need for moral outrage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Like it or not, 'was he clean?' is still a major topic of discussion, because LA is probably the most recognizable global figure the sport has ever had.

LA was on ESPN the other day - he said that his best defense was to look at his history: he didn't suddenly get stronger, he was always a top racer. He's got a point: he won the US amateurs in 1991, won TdF stages in 93 and 95, and won the DuPont in 95 and 96 (second in 94). And we all know what he did after 1999.

Still find it odd that they've never found any real direct evidence that LA was doped up, despite all the various accusations etc. from people formerly in his group. The trail left behind doesn't just vanish.
 

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bas said:
Lance is part of the current doping problem. He was doing the same thing - just never caught. Just like these guys - if it was for the Spanish authorties - Basso and Ulrich wouldn't of been caught.

If no one else was doing it - LA would of road away with a 25 minute victories last several years.

If American authorities would of found and busted Armstrongs doctor - then it would of been over for him too.
I am sure if Lance was brutally honest, he would respond to your post with something like:
"Whatever - they were following me and my team 24-7, going through my trash etc. and they never got any dirt on me. So we were not just smart in our team tactics, but we were also very careful in doping. Basso and Ullrich are no match - they are too careless and stupid. Maybe it just shows the despearation in how far they would go to beat me.

Even Dick Pound and french press - they have been at it for so long, wasting their reputation on silly accusations, that when they finally got something resembling a smoking gun with their retesting of '99 blood samples, they royally screwed up there too, not following protocol and making it look like a witch-hunt.

Seems I retired at the right moment. Whatever you think of me - I can always say - I won against the best of the best who later all turned out to be dopers - Pantani, Ullrich, Basso. I never tested positive for doping, despite all kinds of attempts and "he-said-she-said" association games. In the end, I win, once again. They lose."
 

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and if they are all doping

isn't the playing field still basically level? or does one think the best riders are the best because they dope. clearly by the fact that Liberty Seguros' entire team got popped and none of them has ever won the Tour, it means by and large if everyone from Honch to water carrier is juiced, the fastest riders are still winning.
 
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