I think this goes all the way back to Libery Seguros. The way I understand it, Astana is being punished for getting it’s hand caught in the cookie jar the second time. After it’s ban as Liberty Seguros in 2006 for involvement in Operation Puerto. They were allowed back into the tour in 2007 as Astana, a "new team". Lo and behold, another doping scandal. This is a case of “fool me once…” So, ASO isn't buying the whole we’re a new team line again. They took a risk on Astana & got burn the first time, and now they’re gun shy.blackhat said:
Astana barred from ASO events, including Tour!
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Three things:
Somebody mentioned it earlier but it still is ASO's game or playground and they can see fit on how they want to run the game or not. ASO, in a business sense, have a "product" and want to control it's image it in whatever means they feel that they should - right or wrong. Thus far they have kept people tuning in to their event in this modern media-rich world. Or - if this action is just a case of cycling politics which I am sure that some part of this action is represented by, then they can see fit to take that risk as well. Look at the publicity they have received today alone. Some news is better than no news. A lot of people love Le Tour for it's tradition, not remembering the particular riders or teams who were excluded - you find the stories within the race whoever participates. There was an article written last year that showed that it is the pursuit of the yellow jersey not in-fact the pursuers that "Le Tour" sells.
Second, every year there is some foreshadowing of what to expect during the summer for cycling. Two year's ago there was information regarding Operation Puerto and Basso and Ulrich. Last year it was hints of Rasmussen missing controls. I believe that with Operation Puerto re-opening along with UCI and WADA active in pursuing riders there will be a major announcement (read very bad news) surrounding either Contador, Bruyneel or Discovery. I just think that ASO has had a little bit of a head's up or is more in the loop this year or has their hand's in the game themselves surrounding news to come out.
Finally, don't you think that any smart cyclist or agent of a cyclist like Contador or Leipheimer or especially Klodi would include in their contract a clause that allows for them to take appropriate actions if they were not in the the Tour? That is, if they wanted to be. Doing well in the Tour pays financial dividends to these riders. Non-participation could seriously hampers their financial well-being. Or they are just happy taking the money this year and sitting out of most of the races? The big riders are being well compensated so why not have a quiet year this year and take the money and wait until next year. Nobody is accusing them of seriously doping yet. Just being on the wrong team at the wrong time, much like Unibet.
M.
Somebody mentioned it earlier but it still is ASO's game or playground and they can see fit on how they want to run the game or not. ASO, in a business sense, have a "product" and want to control it's image it in whatever means they feel that they should - right or wrong. Thus far they have kept people tuning in to their event in this modern media-rich world. Or - if this action is just a case of cycling politics which I am sure that some part of this action is represented by, then they can see fit to take that risk as well. Look at the publicity they have received today alone. Some news is better than no news. A lot of people love Le Tour for it's tradition, not remembering the particular riders or teams who were excluded - you find the stories within the race whoever participates. There was an article written last year that showed that it is the pursuit of the yellow jersey not in-fact the pursuers that "Le Tour" sells.
Second, every year there is some foreshadowing of what to expect during the summer for cycling. Two year's ago there was information regarding Operation Puerto and Basso and Ulrich. Last year it was hints of Rasmussen missing controls. I believe that with Operation Puerto re-opening along with UCI and WADA active in pursuing riders there will be a major announcement (read very bad news) surrounding either Contador, Bruyneel or Discovery. I just think that ASO has had a little bit of a head's up or is more in the loop this year or has their hand's in the game themselves surrounding news to come out.
Finally, don't you think that any smart cyclist or agent of a cyclist like Contador or Leipheimer or especially Klodi would include in their contract a clause that allows for them to take appropriate actions if they were not in the the Tour? That is, if they wanted to be. Doing well in the Tour pays financial dividends to these riders. Non-participation could seriously hampers their financial well-being. Or they are just happy taking the money this year and sitting out of most of the races? The big riders are being well compensated so why not have a quiet year this year and take the money and wait until next year. Nobody is accusing them of seriously doping yet. Just being on the wrong team at the wrong time, much like Unibet.
M.
I completely agree. Is their decision fair? Well no, its not fair, but its the only way to get the message across to teams.benInMA said:
Cycling has reached such a point where it isn't good enough anymore for a team to switch managers, bring in new riders, etc. We need more than that, and this is a step in the right direction.
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Huh? I'm looking through his history and I don't see anything.bigpinkt said:
I really don't see why the riders are being punished for their team's past mistakes...if someone in your family murders someone, should your whole family be thrown in jail?
The real losers here are Levi and Kloden IMHO....Levi was just reaching his potential after a few years of letdowns at the tour, and Kloden has been a magnet for bad luck for the past 5 years or so....I almost wouldn't be surprised if he announced his retirement now!
The real losers here are Levi and Kloden IMHO....Levi was just reaching his potential after a few years of letdowns at the tour, and Kloden has been a magnet for bad luck for the past 5 years or so....I almost wouldn't be surprised if he announced his retirement now!
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Also ...
M.
Johann Bruyneel is suspect himself. People in the cycling community no longer like him like they once did. Back then (USPS/Discovery) it was OK that he was winning but I think near the end he fell out of favour with the ASO and the French. He originally brought lots of revenue and increased exposure to Le Tour but now I think politically they have it in for him.Jokull said:
M.
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As mentioned earlier, I am hoping that Levi and Klodi have a clause in their contract that allows them out of this team mid-season given somewhat foreseeable events like this. Not likely that another team will pick them up but riders and their agents shop themselves around all the time, even during the season.
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The case around Brunyeel's former teams is circumstantial. Take it as you will...
Several of their big riders leave the team, and the get busted for doping. Hamilton, Heras, Landis. So are we to believe that they 'rode clean for USPS and saw you could win that way', then decided to leave and dope?
Or is it a case of doing the same thing they've always done, only in a different system?
I know which I believe.
Several of their big riders leave the team, and the get busted for doping. Hamilton, Heras, Landis. So are we to believe that they 'rode clean for USPS and saw you could win that way', then decided to leave and dope?
Or is it a case of doing the same thing they've always done, only in a different system?
I know which I believe.
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I think I believe the same thing as you, but since the evidence is only circumstancial, it isn't really relevant to any decision that ASO have made - they cannot cite this evidence to support their decision to bar Astana. Like I just said though, they don't need to go looking for extra reasons, there are plenty of legitimate ones.Einstruzende said:
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Bruyneel is drawing too much attention to himself. He has a big target on his back and the cycling organizations want to see him caught. He should realize that he served his purpose in the "grander scheme of things" and he should take his money and get out for a while. Bruyneel hasn't made many friends of late. Time to have a low profile. He should follow your friend Lance - at least he made his money and left the sport at the right time.
Cyclings not killing cycling, its the media thats killing cycling. Just let the past go, start over. And lets just race our bikes and smile. Every team has a drugy on it. Ban them all. Who cares. Its a bike race. Look at baseball, they all do drugs and they still play. Do you think football players got that big by just working out? Thats funny. Are they banning any of these teams? Thats funny too. ASO= There loss.
Einstruzende, what team do you race for and will your team be in the TDF?
Einstruzende, what team do you race for and will your team be in the TDF?
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I wasn't "comparing" them. You seem to have missed the point of my post.
I just think it's foolish for the ASO to believe Le Tour is invincible. Plenty of seemingly ironclad organizations have fallen because of poor management. If Le Tour stumbles--say it is boycotted by a number of ProTour teams--it opens the door for something else.
I just think it's foolish for the ASO to believe Le Tour is invincible. Plenty of seemingly ironclad organizations have fallen because of poor management. If Le Tour stumbles--say it is boycotted by a number of ProTour teams--it opens the door for something else.
bigpinkt said:
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True ...
You need more concrete reasons to ban a team even if you are the ASO and it is your race and you set the rules but events will get much worse for Bruyneel and friends before they possibly could get better. I have the feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg so to speak. We still have about 5 months before the Tour starts and there will be some "convenient" news occurring in the lead-up to this event. 2008 is not looking to be a good year at all. Bruyneel should have read his fortune for this year and laid low for a little while longer.
M.
You need more concrete reasons to ban a team even if you are the ASO and it is your race and you set the rules but events will get much worse for Bruyneel and friends before they possibly could get better. I have the feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg so to speak. We still have about 5 months before the Tour starts and there will be some "convenient" news occurring in the lead-up to this event. 2008 is not looking to be a good year at all. Bruyneel should have read his fortune for this year and laid low for a little while longer.
M.
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I fail to see how the fact that I'm not a racer makes my opinion invalid. Please try again. No one has a right to race in the tour, as Astana has found out. It just so happens I agree with their decision, for my own (admitted) bias.Dank said:
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Show me the evidence I am ignoring.bigpinkt said:
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