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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
HA! I find this comment from Phil Ligget rather amusing.

"So, the magic of yellow has worked again and turned Carlos Sastre into a time triallist after all. Cadel Evans was being seen as an automatic winner of the Tour today. After all all he had to do was bridge a gap of 94 seconds against a man he beat by 153 at a similar stage of the race last year."

The magic of the yellow he he he. You mean the magic of a high hematocrit Phil old chap.

Little climber Sastre is less than 30 seconds slower than Evans!!! If Evans was jacked to Sastre's level he wold have won the tour easily.

And Schumacher....I don't even want to start on this dude.


However,
Seems that this tour had significantly slower times and general pace....few heavily jacked their crit I think.



Here's the cure>>>>test every single rider in the top 20 GC immediately before EACH stage, do not give them time to blood dope after morning controls.
All you need is less than 1/4 cc of blood and simple certrifuges....the tested can be done in minutes.
The 50% limit is a joke. No high end aerobic athlete has a crit above 44-45 and the vast majority(like 99%) have crits of 39-42.

Let the riders freely publish their hematocrits every day. Lets see their low 40's crits!!!

Why don't they offer to do this?>>>because the top GC are ALL doped to 49-50%.

Think about it guys.....it's the answer. Now they can still take stuff like HGH, IGF-1 without detection, because they cannot be tested for, but these don't increase your VO2 max and sustainable power at threshold...they are recovery enhancers. A very talented rider can still beat guys that take these but they cannot beat a man jacked to 58% if that man is talented. "There is doping and then there is doping" Twice busted Eddy Mercyx


As long as millions are to be made in pro sport doping cannot stop. If the world wants doping to stop then take away the money and guys will race the tour for the challenge and the fun, and get an education.

Cheers gents.


"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope." Jacque Anquetil
 

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I have a hematocrit of over 46% and still can't climb worth crap.
I get dropped more than a UPS package.

Go ahead and kick me while I'm down.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
FondriestFan said:
I have a hematocrit of over 46% and still can't climb worth crap.
I get dropped more than a UPS package.

Go ahead and kick me while I'm down.

KICK KICK :)

Hard extended aerobic training will knock it down to 42 partner....I can assure you of that....and you'll be a better climber too :)

Cheers
 

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FondriestFan said:
I have a hematocrit of over 46% and still can't climb worth crap.
I get dropped more than a UPS package.
There is little correlation between natural hematocrit and performance. It's the boosting your natural Hct that brings the gains. In the 90s teams would test the Hct of riders they were interested in hiring. They were not checking for high Hct; they were testing for a low Hct and thus the potential to make significant gains with good medical preparation.

I have had mine tested at 52% once. I was out of shape, it was winter, and I live and train at altitude.
 

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I think CSC's performance made the Tour a bit of a farce. Here everyone is saying the race is mostly clean. Look the riders are getting tired. This is what clean cycling looks like. And there is CSC ripping everybody's legs off. Cancellara and Voight were dropping climbing specialists in the mountains. Cunego puts on a temporary tatto saying he is racing clean, and he gets clobbered. Valverde is not much better than Cunego. And Vande Velde, a man who rode for years with the postal Postal doping program then switched to the Liberty Seguros' doping program then switched to the CSC doping program, rides clean with Slipstream but does better than anyone could have dreamed.

My bullcrap meter was beeping everytime I switched on the Versus channel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Under ACrookedSky said:
There is little correlation between natural hematocrit and performance. It's the boosting your natural Hct that brings the gains. In the 90s teams would test the Hct of riders they were interested in hiring. They were not checking for high Hct; they were testing for a low Hct and thus the potential to make significant gains with good medical preparation.

I have had mine tested at 52% once. I was out of shape, it was winter, and I live and train at altitude.


BINGO!

:)
 

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it's easy to accuse CSC of cheating, but a bit harder to provide some plausibility besides simply pointing to good performances (none of which were that surprising). How, for example, do you think they duped Damsgaard and the independent testing he's doing - along with the results being sent to WADA prior to going to CSC? Is Damsgaard, one of the most outspoken critics of doping, suddenly in on a conspiracy?
 

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stevesbike said:
it's easy to accuse CSC of cheating, but a bit harder to provide some plausibility besides simply pointing to good performances (none of which were that surprising). How, for example, do you think they duped Damsgaard and the independent testing he's doing - along with the results being sent to WADA prior to going to CSC? Is Damsgaard, one of the most outspoken critics of doping, suddenly in on a conspiracy?
Damsgaard is probably on the level, but this system still operates to effectively shield the dopers.

Damsgaard is on one side trying to detect doping. On the other side are doctors like Ferrari who are doing their best to beat Damsgaard's system. A doctor like Ferrari is better funded. Since Damsgaard only does tests about once every two weeks, he only has a small window to look through. The team also warns the athlete that there are abnormalities, which tells the athlete to adjust his doping. In the end if the athlete actually is released from the team, it saves the team from a doping positive and it also saves the athlete from a doping positive. The team gets to claim they are clean. The athlete avoids a two year suspension. With european employment law, it is unlikely the athlete cannot collect his salary based merely on suspicion.

Since the Hog is using Damsgaard, you can bet your life that it is a facade that can be avoided.
 

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Maybe what you're saying is right.
Maybe CSC was jacked up for the tour.
But do you honestly believe that an athlete, any athlete can ride a grand tour on bread and water alone? Don't you think all of them are at least pushing the legal limits to what they ingest to the max?
All you have to do is read through these forums alone and you'll see a number of people saying that Cadel Evans or Levi Leipheimer is boring because he doesn't attack. Is it possible for human being to sprint up a wall day in and day out?
Before Ricco got popped some people here were praising him for his panache.
What do you think the tour or Giro or Vuelta would look like if all athletes were on bread and water only? IMO all you'd have left at the end are maybe half the starting peloton and the gaps between riders would be huge.
I'm not debating the morality or immorality of doping.
Just what do you expect the result would be if all of them were actually clean?
 

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Interesting that you view this only in terms of Sastre's performance, and not Evans. Face it, Evans had a bad day. Evans was under pressure the whole race, while few people even knew Sastre was in the race until stage 17. So whether or not Sastre was "jacked," Evans wasn't going to take back 94 seconds. Who cares what he did last year? This isn't last year. These are human beings, not automatons. These are races, not statistical case studies. Performance cannot be guaranteed, with or without dope.
 

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mohair_chair said:
Interesting that you view this only in terms of Sastre's performance, and not Evans. Face it, Evans had a bad day. Evans was under pressure the whole race, while few people even knew Sastre was in the race until stage 17. So whether or not Sastre was "jacked," Evans wasn't going to take back 94 seconds. Who cares what he did last year? This isn't last year. These are human beings, not automatons. These are races, not statistical case studies. Performance cannot be guaranteed, with or without dope.
Not only that but comparing TT results from last year's tour isn't indicative at all of the current situation. I would say compare the TT results of stage 20 of last year's Vuelta when both Sastre and Evans were fighting for that 2nd podium spot. In other words when both had something at stake.
In last year's tour Evans wanted to catch Contador whereas Satsre had no chance in hell of ever toppling Leipheimer for that last podium spot and I think he knew it.
 

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mohair_chair said:
Interesting that you view this only in terms of Sastre's performance, and not Evans. Face it, Evans had a bad day.
It's fairly easy to illustrate this based on power estimates. Alex Simmons has done this, and the results and following discussion are on the Google Wattage list. It's pretty clear that Sastre had a good, but not outstanding performance while Evans performed well below previous efforts.
 

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So a new set of tires, a new rig or a new comfy bib makes one feel/ride a tad faster for a bit, but donning the Maillot Jaune in Le Tour has no effect on one's psyche.

Right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
RkFast said:
So a new set of tires, a new rig or a new comfy bib makes one feel/ride a tad faster for a bit, but donning the Maillot Jaune in Le Tour has no effect on one's psyche.

Right.
Not a flame OK :)
Actually you are correct....you cannot increase your sustainable power at threshold or your VO2 max with ANY psyche. You cannot go faster than your body can go.

If you have a functional threshold power of 350 watts you cannot increase that power with any mental power or any form of motivation.

Now having the Maillot Jaune will make you try your hardest in any stage but it cannot increase your FTP or VO2 max....a nice 800 cc "refill" before the stage can...and I am not taking about sports drinks. :)

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
MG537 said:
Maybe what you're saying is right.
Maybe CSC was jacked up for the tour.
But do you honestly believe that an athlete, any athlete can ride a grand tour on bread and water alone? Don't you think all of them are at least pushing the legal limits to what they ingest to the max?
All you have to do is read through these forums alone and you'll see a number of people saying that Cadel Evans or Levi Leipheimer is boring because he doesn't attack. Is it possible for human being to sprint up a wall day in and day out?
Before Ricco got popped some people here were praising him for his panache.
What do you think the tour or Giro or Vuelta would look like if all athletes were on bread and water only? IMO all you'd have left at the end are maybe half the starting peloton and the gaps between riders would be huge.
I'm not debating the morality or immorality of doping.
Just what do you expect the result would be if all of them were actually clean?

I think it is possible to do the tour clean if everyone was clean, which will never happen. The pace would be very slow and more guys would drop out but I think it can be done.

The gear that the riders of the past had wasn't that helpful. It wasn't until the 60's when riders had access to amphetamines, cortico steroids and testosterone that doping REALLY helped much but even in these days a super talented clean rider(and they were clean at times) could be a doped talented rider because the products didn't directly increase your sustainable power or VO2 max like blood doping and epo does.

Then in the 70's cadaver HGH was used by some but it too was only a recovery product.
It wasn't until 1991, the first year that many top GC men used epo, that an undoped rider was in REALLY big trouble....the general pace was way too high.



Most are doped to some degree or another but as twice busted Eddy Mercyx once said...
"There is doping and then there is doping"
Postal and Discovery had a lot of money and a very good doping program...probably the best of all time. In 2000 they had TWICE as many registered "medical products" than any other team. Also, Lance sure the H didn't give all his Ferarri secrets away to his team.
Ferarri only had so many clients and if it wasn't for Eddy Mercyx Ferrari would never have even talked with Lance once.

Not all the riders blood doped like Postal/Discovery. Not all the teams had the money or "know how" to do this. The same can be said of todays teams. I have no doubt that many guys were satisfied with micro dosing epo to a 50% crit and with a little HGH and or IGF-1, and didn't push their crits to 57-60% for big stages with "refills" of their own previous frozen packed cells(red cells with no plasma). They also didn't even break the top 10 GC
 

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Realgains said:
I think it is possible to do the tour clean....
My question wasn't whether one can complete the tour clean. It is possible to do it. The question is how would a grand tour look like if everyone was clean. No PED's (EPO) no recovery drugs (Testosterone).

We do occasionally get a glimpse of what a race would look like if all were clean. Take for example Linus Gerdemann on stage 7 of the 2007 TdF.
Fantastic stage and grabs the yellow jersey for himself with a 40 sec advantage over 2nd place finisher Inigo Landaluze.
On the following stage he finishes 5 minutes down and exhausted and looses the yellow jersey to Rasmussen.
A day later on stage 9 he's totally exhausted and finishes the stage over 6 minutes down and even looses his white jersey to Contador.
You get the picture? Assuming Gerdemann's performances are human and not "extra-terrestrial" and that everyone ahead of him was jacking up, a grand tour would eventually slow down to a crawl.
How many fans would stay on for that kind of race?
 

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Realgains said:
Not a flame OK :)
Actually you are correct....you cannot increase your sustainable power at threshold or your VO2 max with ANY psyche. You cannot go faster than your body can go.

If you have a functional threshold power of 350 watts you cannot increase that power with any mental power or any form of motivation.

Now having the Maillot Jaune will make you try your hardest in any stage but it cannot increase your FTP or VO2 max....a nice 800 cc "refill" before the stage can...and I am not taking about sports drinks. :)

Cheers
Of course....Im hearing you totally. But wev'e ALL experienced "newbikeitis" and other such things that make the effort at hand seem just a tad bit easier and motivates our bodies for that extra little bit. THAT is what Ligget was referring to.
 

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RkFast said:
Of course....Im hearing you totally. But wev'e ALL experienced "newbikeitis" and other such things that make the effort at hand seem just a tad bit easier and motivates our bodies for that extra little bit. THAT is what Ligget was referring to.
Know what you mean. I just swapped my stock Ultegra kit on my ride for Campy Record and I swear I climb better, I pedal faster I shift better etc.
Is Campy Record considered a Performance Enhancing Kit (PEK) and thus should be banned? :D
 

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Under ACrookedSky said:
I think CSC's performance made the Tour a bit of a farce. Here everyone is saying the race is mostly clean. Look the riders are getting tired. This is what clean cycling looks like. And there is CSC ripping everybody's legs off. Cancellara and Voight were dropping climbing specialists in the mountains. Cunego puts on a temporary tatto saying he is racing clean, and he gets clobbered. Valverde is not much better than Cunego. And Vande Velde, a man who rode for years with the postal Postal doping program then switched to the Liberty Seguros' doping program then switched to the CSC doping program, rides clean with Slipstream but does better than anyone could have dreamed.

My bullcrap meter was beeping everytime I switched on the Versus channel.
vandy was living at some high alititude leading up to the tour.
 
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