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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I used to ride a Mootour with the following dimensions
61cm top tube (60 cm with 6 degree slope), 72 deg seat tube angle, 216mm head tube, and 433mm chainstays (sorry, I don't know the seat tube length). Here's a picture:

I was pretty comfortable on the bike although I felt it was a tad too big. Then it got hammered in an accident. I went to a different LBS and had myself fitted for a steel (953 Reynolds) Waterford. It's dimensions are radically different: Top tube 54cm, seat tube angle 74.5 degree, 186mm head tube (72.5 degree head tube angle). Here's a picture:


I took the Waterford out for a brief ride and I must say I feel pretty comfortable on it, although it seems tiny in comparison to the Moots.
What happened here? How can there be a 7 cm difference in the top tube and I still fit on the bike? Even if you subtract 1 cm per degree in the seat tube angle it still doesn't compute. I'm stumped.
 

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duh...
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difference in STAs make up some of it. you've got your saddle pushed way forward too, more so on the moots (if that's the final saddle position on the waterford you might consider a no setback post). the differences in HT is made up by the many spacers on the waterford
 

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Saddle to handlebar drop? Can't tell with the Moots (might be pointing slightly down/up hill), but there looks to be a difference in drop between the two. Instead of measuring top tube (2-dimensions), what is the difference between your hands and your sitbones (3-dimensions)?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Interesting. There was hardly any drop on the Moots, and there's a noticeable drop on the Waterford. The stem on the Waterford is 10mm longer, too.
I still is a dramatic change, and I'm thinking one of the fitters is right and the other wrong. I haven't had enough time yet on the bike to say how it feels on long rides.
 

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Squalor
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Looks like two bikes designed for two different purposes on two seperate ends of the spectrum to me. Fit often follows function.

Plus the Moots looks a little big and the Waterford looks a little small based solely on saddle and handlebar position.

What happen to the Moots? I saw it on ebay some time ago but I didn't think it sold.

Nice bikes.

LP
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, the Mootour was definitely designed for long distance, randonneur-type riding, the Waterford as a club racer, and yes, the Mootour was too big--it felt best with a 90mm stem, which was horrible to ride. The Waterford fitter also said something about me having long femurs....

I still have the Mootour. I'm thinking of turning it into a commuter.
 

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Squalor
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Beethoven said:
The Waterford fitter also said something about me having long femurs....
Were you actually "fit" on the bikes after they were built up? Or were both frames built around your body dimensions and then built up with components and handed over to you.

Long femurs and a 74.5 STA for a club racer does not compute to me, especially with your saddle in such a forward position. How is your knee over pedal spindle position?

Why was the 90mm stem terrible to ride?

Bike fit is an interesting "fuzzy-science".

LP
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I might be wrong about the femur thing--I was still heavily medicated after my accident.

Yes, I was actually fit (with fit cycles) for these bikes--they're both custom. That's the reason why I'm interested in this--how can two fitters end up with such drastically different designs? On the Waterford, my knees are exactly over the spindle, and when I'm on the hoods the handlebars are perfectly over the front hub.
As I've said, I need to take the bike out for a long ride to get a better feel. It'll be an interesting spring.

p.s. the 90mm stem made the bike very twitchy--you could take you hands off the bars, for example.
 

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Beethoven said:
Yes, I was actually fit (with fit cycles) for these bikes--they're both custom. That's the reason why I'm interested in this--how can two fitters end up with such drastically different designs? On the Waterford, my knees are exactly over the spindle, and when I'm on the hoods the handlebars are perfectly over the front hub.
As I've said, I need to take the bike out for a long ride to get a better feel. It'll be an interesting spring.

p.s. the 90mm stem made the bike very twitchy--you could take you hands off the bars, for example.
The drop on the Waterford increases the reach. Along with the slack STA on the Moots, the difference could be met.
That saddle, slammed forward, makes me think that the Waterford couldn't possibly have been built for you unless the spec'd a 0 off-set and you used what you had. The spacers on the Waterford seems to indicate that messed up the HT length as well. Did the shop fit you to the frame after the build, or did you build it yourself?
I'd raise these issues with the LBS. If they are going to be in the custom business, they need to do it right, or make it right. I'd question their experience, or at least their understanding of fit, at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, they fit me after the build. The set-back seat post is a case, I think, where we're caught in between two positions--a straight seat post might put the saddle too far forward. I've ordered one, we'll see.
As for the spacers, we wanted to experiment a bit and see how low I can go as I get back into serious riding.
Just to be clear, I'm not upset with the fitter and the LBS, just puzzled at what I take to be a dramatic change. I'll report my impressions when I go on my first long ride.
 

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naranjito
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Beethoven said:
I might be wrong about the femur thing--I was still heavily medicated after my accident.

Yes, I was actually fit (with fit cycles) for these bikes--they're both custom. That's the reason why I'm interested in this--how can two fitters end up with such drastically different designs? On the Waterford, my knees are exactly over the spindle, and when I'm on the hoods the handlebars are perfectly over the front hub.
As I've said, I need to take the bike out for a long ride to get a better feel. It'll be an interesting spring.

p.s. the 90mm stem made the bike very twitchy--you could take you hands off the bars, for example.
It is usual to find differences between fitters, depending on their idea of 'bike fit', but it would also depend on what exactly you told them you wanted. If you took two totally different fitters, and gave them the exact same information about you and what you wanted, then they would probably come up with more or less the same thing. If you gave them different info, or they interpreted the info you gave them in different ways, then you'll see different results. If you then bring two different framebuilders into the equation, then the results are likely to vary even more. Some builders might tend to build bikes with a longer TT for use with a shorter stem, and others might tend towards shorter TTs and longer stems. Your position on the bike might be the same, but the handling won't be.

As for KOPS and stem hiding the hub, those are very old fashioned ways to find what can only be considered a very basic fit position, and should never be used to find you final fit. They can help an absolute beginner find a starting point for developing his position, but nothing more.

Stem length has nothing to do with making a bike twitchy or not. Handling characteristics come from wheelbase, HT angle, fork rake, and rider weight distribution. A different size stem will very slightly change the rider weight distribution, but the change will be minimal and unnoticable in the handling. If the stem change is accompanied by a saddle fore/aft change, then this will affect weight distribution and handling, but you should never move your saddle to make you fit a stem change.

foz
 

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I have been to various fitters over the course of my riding career and each seems to have a different idea of exactly what the *best* position should be. I am very lucky to live close to a superb bike designer, who has designed all but one of my custom bikes. He listens very closely to what the intent of each bike will be and then fits according to the riders dimensions, flexibility, etc...

It seems that in your case you may have gotten a fitters at the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. There is a possibility that there was a mistake as you said, but I would certainly hope not.

Would you mind sharing your body dimensions? That may help some of the experts around here help. Similarly built individuals would be able to share their setups as well.

I know that I am a "long legs/short torso" kind of person and my fit is dialed accordingly. On the flip side, I have found that I like a more stretched out position with more bar drop than my fitter originally spec'ed. I seem to be far more comfortable with a more aggressive position, which is a bit contrary to what most people experience.

Fit is a very personal thing, much like preference for a certain saddle. I feel that I got a good starting point and then tweaked things slightly through time. I always kept a close measure on all of the modifications, so that I could always revert back to previous setups.

Fit can be frustrating, but when you get it right, it is a glorious thing!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I took a two hour ride today--it was still bloody cold, but I couldn't wait any longer. The long and short of it is that I'm quite comfortable on the bike; or, to put it another way, nothing hurt, nothing was numb, nothing seemed cramped, I seemed to have access to power. I say 'seemed' because I haven't been on a bike for close to four months, have obviously lost a lot of muscle strength and aerobic capacity, and therefore can't make a straight comparison. But I know for sure that I suffered much more discomfort in the lower back on the Moots, when I hadn't ridden it for a while.
As the weather gets better I'll try to put as many miles on the bike as I can. If everything works out and I grow into the bike, the young man who fit me will get a glowing recommendation letter.
 

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Besides a change in bikes... there might be a change in you. Have you lost flexibility from age or the accident? A person's bike fit should change over time. I agree that 7 cm is a bit much.

nice waterford, btw.
 
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