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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am looking to upgrade from my Motobecane Vent Noir 64 cm to a Canyon Endurace. I am struggling with sizing a bit.

I have low back and hip issues on my right side. MRIs have been done, mostly wear and tear causing pain, no surgery required.

My Motobecane was fitted by a physiotherapist who is SEROTTA certified and uses dartfish fitting technology. It was a professional fit.

I have an inseam of around 37.5 inches, am 6'4"+ and have arms that are about 30.5 inches from shoulder pivot to center of fist. Trunk is 26.5 inches. I am tall, have long legs and long arms with a shorter torso.

When I use competitive cyclist calculator it says I need a C-T seat tube of 64 cm and ETT of around 590mm.

Canyon recommends an XL for me on their website. However, my Motobecane seems to align more with the XXL geometry. Not sure exactly what size is best. When chatting with Canyon they seemed to say XL or XXL would fit depending on whether I want, a more aggressive ride (XL) or relaxed (XXL).

What I notice is that the ETT of my Motobecane and the Canyon XXL are longer than what competive cyclist recommends, I wonder if this is causing me issues. I like my motobecane, but sometimes I feel like I am leaning on my arms/wrists a bit too much which makes me wonder if I am too stretched out (I realize this could also just be core strength issues and what contributes to my back/hip pain).

I have included the geometry charts of my bike, and the Endurace XL and XXL for comparison. I want to get something that won't be worse for my back/hip. Basically, anything that decreases the pivot angle between my thigh and torso is bad from a pain perspective.

Anybody in similar situations with recommendations or with fitting experience, your opinons are welcome. I would go to LBS, but getting frame sizes for my body type locally are all special orders.

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I have lower back issues from bending over. I am more flexible now and run more drop than I ever thought possible, although compared to pro fits most would wonder WTH?
Anyway, I would look at your seat to HB drop. Due to my flexiblity issues when I originally started riding a lot, I would buy the biggest frame I could get so I would not have to bend over so much.

I have a lot of bikes, some for visitors & I got some of those adjustable angle geek stems that you can run straight or straight up. Before I get a new bike you might consider getting one of those for your present bike and reducing your HB drop. I'm not saying that is your problem but a $30 stem may give you some insight before you make a decision.
 

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You have a huge advantage from your experience with your Motobecane. Think about what is working and what you want to improve from your current set-up. Ask questions here about comparable geometry. Keep the geo chart for the Motobecane at hand and consider how changing each angle and measurement impacts the fit, handling ride and comfort. You will able to project the geo you want, that’s the work here, once you have your frame geo figured out then it’s easy, you just find frames that have geo charts that match what you want. It doesn’t need to be a Canyon it needs to do what you want. You won’t notice any difference between frames of equal geo so weight and cost are what matter. Get the lightest frame you can justify spending that has the geo you want. Make sure it’ll run tire sizes you want. Hang the group you want/can justify spending... Handlebars, cranks, all based on your previous assessment of your optimized geo chart. Keep in mind that frames are rim or disc and mechanical or electronic specific so make that decision before picking a frame.

Your measurements don’t look like you would need a custom frame you just need to find the frame that fits. If you do need a custom I’d look into a Parlee. Albeit, I don’t see the need from my amateur knowledge and far away place....


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The geometry of these bikes is quite different. Looking at the Stack and Reach, your Motobecane is more relaxed while the Canyon is more aggressive. I would seriously think twice before going to a more aggressive frame geometry if you have back and hip issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The geometry of these bikes is quite different. Looking at the Stack and Reach, your Motobecane is more relaxed while the Canyon is more aggressive. I would seriously think twice before going to a more aggressive frame geometry if you have back and hip issues.
Is it really that different? The stack on the XXL is 2mm higher than my Motobecane and the reach is 13mm. Are those numbers that big of a difference? Is there something else I am missing? The Endurace comes with 120mm stem, I currently ride a 110mm , I would have no issue going down to a 100 to bring the reach in line with the Motobecane.

I understand that higher stack and shorter reach is less aggressive. The basics of ETT and seat post length I get. The rest of the geometry I don't understand as well. I guess that is my problem.

Reaching out to bend, and pushing my hips back is OK. Scrunching up to bend and get low is where problems really crop up.

I guess what confuses me is I have read a lot of threads relating to being tall with long limbs and a shorter torso. Some say get a larger frame because your arms give you more reach, others say you should go with a smaller frame because your trunk is shorter. It all gets very confusing to me, that there are opposite recommendations for the same body type.
 

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Take a look at the stack and reach dimensions.

The reach of your Motobecane is less than the smaller Canyon

The stack of your Motobecane is almost the same as the larger Canyon.

Although it sounds to me like you don't mind being stretched out a little more as long as you're not slammed down. And yes, you can always sub a shorter and more upright stem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I have attached photos with angles from my bike fitting on my current setup. I personally don't find the 64cm Motobecane looks like an oversized frame for me at all. The bike is huge, there is no doubt, but it seems to be proportional to my size I would say. Which has me leaning to the XXL or 62cm+ frame sizes of whatever manufacturer I decide to go with, Canyon or not.

I know I don't need a custom frame, all I meant was where I live, XL/XXL 62cm+ frame sizes are hard to find where I live.

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I do like my Motobecane for the most part. I simply am looking to upgrade to disk brakes. I do a lot of hill riding with fast decents and also pull a bike trailer with a toddler. I figured disk brakes would be a little better performing under those circumstances. I would like a 105 or Ultegra groupset.
 

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It looks like you have a lot of HB drop, your elbows look totally locked out. I would try a more upright stem and just see if it helps your pain. You got a 'racer' fit, it's not for everyone.
Getting a new bike with the same setup you have now isn't going to 'fix' anything.
 

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You can’t fix frame geo that isn’t doing what you want. A bicycle is a frame with stuff bolted on it. The frame is everything. It’s important to understand what you have. You are doing that the right way! Keep asking questions until you can understand the impact of the geo changes on frame charts. Most people can fit 3 frame sizes, one a little small, one a little big and one just right. I’m 6’2” with long arms and torso and short legs. My middle frame size that I use is 58.

You mention issues? Like what? Can you bend at the waist and touch your toes? The floor?


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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You can’t fix frame geo that isn’t doing what you want. A bicycle is a frame with stuff bolted on it. The frame is everything. It’s important to understand what you have. You are doing that the right way! Keep asking questions until you can understand the impact of the geo changes on frame charts. Most people can fit 3 frame sizes, one a little small, one a little big and one just right. I’m 6’2” with long arms and torso and short legs. My middle frame size that I use is 58.

You mention issues? Like what? Can you bend at the waist and touch your toes? The floor?


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I have been dealing with iliopsoas pain, si-joint, and 5th lumbar vergebrae issues all on my right side. There are a few things this comes from. I have a leg length discrepancy of 1.7cm, so the long side deals with all the pain. I sit for my job, so I naturally have tight hip flexors.

I can touch my toes, no pain. The pain tends to come on slowly and hang around for a week and subside. Part of the problem is like many, I do have weak core muscles and am working on that. The pain comes on after repeating aggravating movements over a period, not from a single movement like bending to touch my toes, unless I did it a bunch of times in a row.

I feel comfortable on my Vent Noir, my arms are a little too straight maybe, the rest feels good.

I brought up my back/hip issues not because I think my current bike is a problem for that. More just as an FYI, that this is a chronic issue I am dealing with and I don't want to make decisions that aggravate that situation.
 

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It looks like you have a lot of HB drop, your elbows look totally locked out. I would try a more upright stem and just see if it helps your pain. You got a 'racer' fit, it's not for everyone.
Getting a new bike with the same setup you have now isn't going to 'fix' anything.
Before trying a more upright stem, it looks like there is maybe 15mm of spacers on top of the current stem, which could be moved below it to achieve the same thing.
 

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I see that 139.9° knee angle as potentially problematic. That should be between 150° and 160°.
 

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I have been dealing with iliopsoas pain, si-joint, and 5th lumbar vergebrae issues all on my right side. There are a few things this comes from. I have a leg length discrepancy of 1.7cm, so the long side deals with all the pain. I sit for my job, so I naturally have tight hip flexors.

I can touch my toes, no pain. The pain tends to come on slowly and hang around for a week and subside. Part of the problem is like many, I do have weak core muscles and am working on that. The pain comes on after repeating aggravating movements over a period, not from a single movement like bending to touch my toes, unless I did it a bunch of times in a row.

I feel comfortable on my Vent Noir, my arms are a little too straight maybe, the rest feels good.

I brought up my back/hip issues not because I think my current bike is a problem for that. More just as an FYI, that this is a chronic issue I am dealing with and I don't want to make decisions that aggravate that situation.
Well, on the one hand you seem to tolerate a pretty aggressive geo. If you bend your elbows to 90 degrees and make your transverse abdominis pick up the load from your locked out arms what happens?


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OK, I'm going to give my $.02's worth. I'm 6'3", 60 yrs old, and while you are long in the legs, I'm long in the torso. I'm only 1" shorter than you, and yet I'd never need the taller frame. But from what I'm seeing in your picture (and your complaints) is that you need a more upright posture. Yes, it's detrimental to aerodynamic, but with your back problems, you probably need to be more upright. I don't know how old you are, but your back issues are common to older people, so what works for us 60+ geezers is probably good for you, as well.

One of my bikes at home is an old Trek 710 classic Reynolds 531 frame. When I first got it at age 33, it felt perfect with a 90mm stem and a 61cm (maybe 24"-24.5"?) frame. As the years pass, it feels more and more stretched, and I ride it rarely now. I'll probably be looking for a 60mm Technomic stem, just to make it more comfortable to ride.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I see that 139.9° knee angle as potentially problematic. That should be between 150° and 160°.
Maybe 141-142, I have never heard or seen an angle much more than that being recommended from all the reading I have done and neither from my bike fitter. She did tell me as I gain flexibility I could up that angle a bit, but not to 150-160.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
OK, I'm going to give my $.02's worth. I'm 6'3", 60 yrs old, and while you are long in the legs, I'm long in the torso. I'm only 1" shorter than you, and yet I'd never need the taller frame. But from what I'm seeing in your picture (and your complaints) is that you need a more upright posture. Yes, it's detrimental to aerodynamic, but with your back problems, you probably need to be more upright. I don't know how old you are, but your back issues are common to older people, so what works for us 60+ geezers is probably good for you, as well.

One of my bikes at home is an old Trek 710 classic Reynolds 531 frame. When I first got it at age 33, it felt perfect with a 90mm stem and a 61cm (maybe 24"-24.5"?) frame. As the years pass, it feels more and more stretched, and I ride it rarely now. I'll probably be looking for a 60mm Technomic stem, just to make it more comfortable to ride.
I am 37 feeling like I am going on 50 lol

I was pretty heavy into hill climbing, doing the Whiteface uphill race in Lake Placid for 4 straight years and riding in a pretty hilly nature park. Then everything just went down hill at around 33.

I think a lot of my problems stem from my leg length discrepancy, but aside from a shoe lift for walking and sports, there are no interventions being recommended by my doctors other than physio and core strengthening exercises.

Its an up and down battle that I have learned to manage.

Getting the bike fitted by a certified physio with years of bike fitting experience was part of my attack plan. She lowered my bars down, brought up my seat and stretched me out, despite knowing my issues. Maybe she wasn't they right person to go to. She kept saying I looked like a sail up there on my bike. I wonder if she was more concerned about that than my issues. She even suggested I bump up my stem to a 120 from 110 if I felt I could.

This is where I get confused. Like I said, some people say stretch yourself out more, get more aggressive, others say get more upright. Others say take a smaller frame because of your short torso and other say take a larger frame for your long arms lol

TBH, when I look at the pictures. I don't find I look small on the bike at all. I feel the frame size is correct. I do feel good on the bike, but I may try raising the bars a bit as suggested to see what that does.

Maybe I need to find someone else to do an assessment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well, on the one hand you seem to tolerate a pretty aggressive geo. If you bend your elbows to 90 degrees and make your transverse abdominis pick up the load from your locked out arms what happens?


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I'll slouch over time, my core is weak unfortunately.
 

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With those long legs, looking at the picture it sure looks like your knee's are not bending enough. But, when you look at the 90deg picture, your knees look over the pedal shaft.
With those long legs, you should get the longest crank arms you can find, that would give you more angle.

Yea, a lot of fitter's want to fit you into the 'race' fit. Sounds like you can go, but ?
 

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You know, I hate to say it... But given where you are you might want to consider cutting down on riding and spending a year in the gym with a good guide like Mark Vestagens’s first book. Maybe start out with a PT to make sure you don’t mess up the back. I had an awful strength imbalance and was able to fix it with a dedicated effort to do so.

As for the bike, you are doing great, getting the information you need and asking questions! You have enough miles in you to know what will work and what wont work.


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