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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The past 2 days, I've heard so much talk about how Beltran used to ride with Lance and Postal/Discovery and their "doping record", how that team is basically all indicted because of this and other subsequent dope positives, despite the fact that most weren't even on the team when they were caught, i.e. Floyd positive with Phonak, Tyler positive with Phonak, Basso positive with CSC, Heras positive with Liberty Seguros, etc. I mean, it's not like Postal/Discovery was the only other team Beltran rode for. How come people haven't been bringing up the "Mapei Scorecard", or the "Banesto Scorecard"? Is there really that much LA resentment out there? I'm not defending LA at all here, but sheesh.
 

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Racer C said:
The past 2 days, I've heard so much talk about how Beltran used to ride with Lance and Postal/Discovery and their "doping record", how that team is basically all indicted because of this and other subsequent dope positives, despite the fact that most weren't even on the team when they were caught, i.e. Floyd positive with Phonak, Tyler positive with Phonak, Basso positive with CSC, Heras positive with Liberty Seguros, etc. I mean, it's not like Postal/Discovery was the only other team Beltran rode for. How come people haven't been bringing up the "Mapei Scorecard", or the "Banesto Scorecard"? Is there really that much LA resentment out there? I'm not defending LA at all here, but sheesh.
Mapai is brought up all the time, just not in the American media. Phonak and Astana set some pretty impressive performances for Positives in a year

If this was the first former Disco/postal rider who doped then I would say you have a point. Since Beltran is the 10th it is a valid point of discussion.
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
But why blame Postal/Discovery for his doping? Who's to say he didn't start doping at Mapei or Banesto, or Coast? I just don't understand the singular indictment of the one former team.
 

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Racer C said:
But why blame Postal/Discovery for his doping? Who's to say he didn't start doping at Mapei or Banesto, or Coast? I just don't understand the singular indictment of the one former team.
I am not blaming Postal/Disco. At the time Beltran came into the sport it was common for teams to have organized doping programs so any of his teams could have started him down the road. The interest is mostly because he is yet another in a growing list of ex Postal/Disco riders who dope. If the list was 1 or 2 riders then I am sure most would not draw the conclusion, but because it it 10 then it begin to raise questions.
 

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Because there's only one person who had the following to say after winning his last TDF.
<blockquote><em>
But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it.</em>
Lance™ 7-24-05
</blockquote>
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
bigpinkt said:
If the list was 1 or 2 riders then I am sure most would not draw the conclusion, but because it it 10 then it begin to raise questions.
But there are easily just as many associated with Mapei and Banesto like: Jose Luis Jimenez, Jose Maria Jimenez, Francisco Mancebo, Aitor Osa, Unai Osa, Jose Ivan Gutierrez, Eladio Jimenez, Dariusz Baranowski, Alex Zulle, Santiago Blanco, Javier Pascquale, Ruben Plaza, Johan Museeuw, David Latasa, Stefano Harzelli, Patrick Sinkewitz, Oskar Camenzind, Frank Vandenbroucke, Gianni Bugno, Michele Bartoli, etc. The point remains, how is Beltran's doping is more an indictment of Postal/Disco than Banesto and Mapei? I'm all for calling out Liquigas, it still seems weird to me to point out only one team he formerly rode for and no others.
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
blackhat said:
Because there's only one person who had the following to say after winning his last TDF.
<blockquote><em>
But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it.</em>
Lance™ 7-24-05
</blockquote>

You're right, when he gave that speech, Lance totally should have known that Beltran would test positive at the Tour, 3 years in the future.
 

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Parsimony. Simplest explanation is that they all learned to dope at Postal. Requires only one place for the doping among all those people to be learned. If they all learned doping at different places, more 'steps' are involved, so it's a less parsimonious explanation.

Course, there probably were lots of doping 'nodes.'

Racer C said:
The past 2 days, I've heard so much talk about how Beltran used to ride with Lance and Postal/Discovery and their "doping record", how that team is basically all indicted because of this and other subsequent dope positives, despite the fact that most weren't even on the team when they were caught, i.e. Floyd positive with Phonak, Tyler positive with Phonak, Basso positive with CSC, Heras positive with Liberty Seguros, etc. I mean, it's not like Postal/Discovery was the only other team Beltran rode for. How come people haven't been bringing up the "Mapei Scorecard", or the "Banesto Scorecard"? Is there really that much LA resentment out there? I'm not defending LA at all here, but sheesh.
 

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Racer C said:
But there are easily just as many associated with Mapei and Banesto like: Jose Luis Jimenez, Jose Maria Jimenez, Francisco Mancebo, Aitor Osa, Unai Osa, Jose Ivan Gutierrez, Eladio Jimenez, Dariusz Baranowski, Alex Zulle, Santiago Blanco, Javier Pascquale, Ruben Plaza, Johan Museeuw, David Latasa, Stefano Harzelli, Patrick Sinkewitz, Oskar Camenzind, Frank Vandenbroucke, Gianni Bugno, Michele Bartoli, etc. The point remains, how is Beltran's doping is more an indictment of Postal/Disco than Banesto and Mapei? I'm all for calling out Liquigas, it still seems weird to me to point out only one team he formerly rode for and no others.
I think that people are (finally) calling for Postal/Discovery to be viewed like every other pro team in that they were as eye-deep in the shenanigans as everybody else. Also, doesn't Tailwind Sports' hiring of Basso in spite of all the Puerto evidence give some sense of their attitude on the issue of doping? I would certainly imagine that the veterans from Kelme, Mapei et al who were brought on board at USPS were no strangers to "medical preparation".
 

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By combining the two teams the list is large....but I do not recall any team being quite so sanctimonious of the cleanliness of its riders. To have a team that so often touted itself as clean have so many ex riders dope raises many questions.
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
bigpinkt said:
By combining the two teams the list is large....but I do not recall any team being quite so sanctimonious of the cleanliness of its riders. To have a team that so often touted itself as clean have so many ex riders dope raises many questions.
Let me think about this for a second. I'd say the most sanctimonious teams today, regarding the cleanliness of their riders are Garmin/Chipotle and Columbia. So, if 5 years from now, Kim Kirchen, Konstantin Svitsov, Dave Zabriskie or Thomas Lovkvist get caught doping while all riding for different teams, then it completely calls into question anything anyone has done while a member of Garmin/Chipotle or Columbia? I think it's totally fair to call into question the individual rider, but the whole team? I mean it's not like the former Postal/Disco riders who have been caught were all on the team at the same time. I'd say you have a better argument if that were the case.
 

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bigpinkt said:
By combining the two teams the list is large....but I do not recall any team being quite so sanctimonious of the cleanliness of its riders. To have a team that so often touted itself as clean have so many ex riders dope raises many questions.
- Yes or No question : Did any 1 rider ever test positive and receive a suspension from the UCI while riding for Postal/Disco?
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
DMFT said:
- Yes or No question : Did any 1 rider ever test positive and receive a suspension from the UCI while riding for Postal/Disco?
Actually, yes, 1 rider. In 2002, Gianpaolo Mondini was fired after less than 2 months with Postal when it was discovered that he had been found with doping products with his previous team the year before at the Giro.
 

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Racer C said:
Actually, yes, 1 rider. In 2002, Gianpaolo Mondini was fired after less than 2 months with Postal when it was discovered that he had been found with doping products with his previous team the year before at the Giro.

- That would be a "no" then..... Previous team, year before.

Not sayin' they were squeaky-clean. Just not hatin' like most others.
 

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Racer C said:
Let me think about this for a second. I'd say the most sanctimonious teams today, regarding the cleanliness of their riders are Garmin/Chipotle and Columbia. So, if 5 years from now, Kim Kirchen, Konstantin Svitsov, Dave Zabriskie or Thomas Lovkvist get caught doping while all riding for different teams, then it completely calls into question anything anyone has done while a member of Garmin/Chipotle or Columbia? I think it's totally fair to call into question the individual rider, but the whole team? I mean it's not like the former Postal/Disco riders who have been caught were all on the team at the same time. I'd say you have a better argument if that were the case.
You raise a good question. If in the next 3-4 years you had 10 ex-Garmin guys test positive there would be the same level, if not more, of talk. If Garmin had 10 ex riders who were dopers I would be one of the first to call them a fraud.

But that is only a "what if" with Postal/Disco we are dealing with actual events.
 

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bigpinkt said:
You raise a good question. If in the next 3-4 years you had 10 ex-Garmin guys test positive there would be the same level, if not more, of talk. If Garmin had 10 ex riders who were dopers I would be one of the first to call them a fraud.

But that is only a "what if" with Postal/Disco we are dealing with actual events.
and if some empty bags of actovegin and syringes were found to have been discarded by Garmin staff, as was the case with postal in 2000 and if Garmin employed the services of Ferrari or Cecchini and Mr. "extract of cortisone" Carmichael, and had former staffers lining up to tell their versions of the dopeshow in addition to the positives, then sure you could be comparatively suspicious of Garmin. Obviously, that's not currently the case.
 

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exactly

DMFT said:
- That would be a "no" then..... Previous team, year before.

Not sayin' they were squeaky-clean. Just not hatin' like most others.
they sacked him instantly when they found out about his doping with another team

Racer C you are spot on

this is nothing more than sour grapes / anti Lance-ism

why no CSC bashing? Tyler was popped riding for them andwe know their DS was stripped of hisTdF title for doping,and Basso....

just imagine if this was a court of law and people were
trying to blame an organization for their former employees actions while working for another firm, sometimes 2 firms post leaving

even funnier is how they try to blame Postal/Disco for Ivan's doping BEFORE he rode for them
 
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