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so in tonights training series i made two good hard efforts. One in lap 2 to bridge up to a break of 7 riders (successful) and one to go for some points (top 2 each lap got points). in both instances i got into the top 5 or 10 in the group, waited for someone to come up on my side, used them as a leadout, and then sprinted. i think i hit my limit for the first time in my life as a cyclist during the second sprint, as i was seeing sort of blury. But i hit 36.7mph in one of them, def. a new best. Both times the pack was riding around 25-27mph when i went for it.

In the first attempt I succesffuly bridged up, but this was at the base of the short hill and the lead group broke up on the hill, and by the next turn the break was caught. I was blown up before that and managed to hang onto the group (barely) for a few laps before starting to yoyo. It was at least 15 minutes before I felt I had some energy in me

In my second attempt I got about 50m on the pack before I blew up (about 30 seconds of sprint). when i blew up this time I was cooked, and was having difficulty keeping my cadence above 50. I never got my energy back (this was with 3 to go)

Now, this all would be fine if these were final sprints, but my question is, HOW CAN I TRAIN TO SPRINT AND RECOVER QUICKER, AT SPEED????? I know I need to do more intervals, and longer ones, and I'm guessing I should "recover" at a higher speed to simulate a race, but I want to know if thats right or if there is somethiing better. I am not a sprinter at all but I am going to be pretty much racing crits and crits only for the summer (I look forward to next years collegiate season and our hilly road races) so I am going to try to become a better sprinter/crit racer over the summer. I know the easy way out is to just sit in the pack till the final sprint, but thats no fun. I like mixing things up and being in the front and going with breaks or for preems and such. I am not in "race shape" quite yet after my month off, but I'd say im 85%+ back to where I was. By next week I think ill be where I was before I took my month off. Thanks for the help, and how can I keep myself from blowing up or at least recover quicker or sprint longer? best?
 

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CC09 said:
Now, this all would be fine if these were final sprints, but my question is, HOW CAN I TRAIN TO SPRINT AND RECOVER QUICKER, AT SPEED?????
Recovery is completely dependent on aerobic fitness so you train to recover the same way you train aerobic or functional threshold. Long intervals at 90-105% of functional threshold or long rides (a few hours) around 80-95% of functional threshold.
 

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Someone suggested a good strategy on a similar post that I cannot remember, do 3 min intervals (not at full strength, just below it, or somewhat below it) and then ride at a moderate pace for 5 min. Eventually over a few weeks they went from doing those with alot of effort to doing 5 min on and 3 min moderate. For your purposes however, since you wanna try more high end, you might look into shortening the timings and increasing speed rather than duration as you repeat it. Maybe 1 min on at around low 30's, 32 mph perhaps, then 3 min off at 25mph, or whatever the pace is generally on those crits. I have been using a similar routine to practice for crits that are coming up this saturday and sunday, and generally the rest of the summer.
Matt
 

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asgelle said:
Recovery is completely dependent on aerobic fitness so you train to recover the same way you train aerobic or functional threshold. Long intervals at 90-105% of functional threshold or long rides (a few hours) around 80-95% of functional threshold.
So long moutain climbs are good too that really tax you?
 

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bas said:
So long moutain climbs are good too that really tax you?
Yes, but after thinking about it a little more, I realize that while the first part of what I worte is correct (recovery is the same as aerobic fitness), the second part may not be. While it's true that long intervals or long fairly hard rides will improve aerobic fitness, the best way to train depends on the specific needs of the event being considered and the current abilities of the athlete. So while long steady intervals may be best for one rider, the on/off intervlas described above may be better for another. Just as a note, if done properly, at as high a total effort as possible, the on/off intervals will probably end up with power in the same range as the long threshold intervals.
 

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CC09 said:
so in tonights training series i made two good hard efforts. One in lap 2 to bridge up to a break of 7 riders (successful) and one to go for some points (top 2 each lap got points). in both instances i got into the top 5 or 10 in the group, waited for someone to come up on my side, used them as a leadout, and then sprinted. i think i hit my limit for the first time in my life as a cyclist during the second sprint, as i was seeing sort of blury. But i hit 36.7mph in one of them, def. a new best. Both times the pack was riding around 25-27mph when i went for it.

In the first attempt I succesffuly bridged up, but this was at the base of the short hill and the lead group broke up on the hill, and by the next turn the break was caught. I was blown up before that and managed to hang onto the group (barely) for a few laps before starting to yoyo. It was at least 15 minutes before I felt I had some energy in me

In my second attempt I got about 50m on the pack before I blew up (about 30 seconds of sprint). when i blew up this time I was cooked, and was having difficulty keeping my cadence above 50. I never got my energy back (this was with 3 to go)

Now, this all would be fine if these were final sprints, but my question is, HOW CAN I TRAIN TO SPRINT AND RECOVER QUICKER, AT SPEED????? I know I need to do more intervals, and longer ones, and I'm guessing I should "recover" at a higher speed to simulate a race, but I want to know if thats right or if there is somethiing better. I am not a sprinter at all but I am going to be pretty much racing crits and crits only for the summer (I look forward to next years collegiate season and our hilly road races) so I am going to try to become a better sprinter/crit racer over the summer. I know the easy way out is to just sit in the pack till the final sprint, but thats no fun. I like mixing things up and being in the front and going with breaks or for preems and such. I am not in "race shape" quite yet after my month off, but I'd say im 85%+ back to where I was. By next week I think ill be where I was before I took my month off. Thanks for the help, and how can I keep myself from blowing up or at least recover quicker or sprint longer? best?

Ability to recover from hard efforts is dictated by aerobic fitness. Simple bread-and-butter endurance training is the best and simplest way to improve this. Long rides, tempo, threshold work, etc. Fancy "limited recovery" workouts don't stimulate anything unique. If you're not already, I'd throw in some long threshold intervals such as 2x20 minutes or 3x15 minutes at least 1x per week.
 

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asgelle said:
Yes, but after thinking about it a little more, I realize that while the first part of what I worte is correct (recovery is the same as aerobic fitness), the second part may not be. While it's true that long intervals or long fairly hard rides will improve aerobic fitness, the best way to train depends on the specific needs of the event being considered and the current abilities of the athlete. So while long steady intervals may be best for one rider, the on/off intervlas described above may be better for another. Just as a note, if done properly, at as high a total effort as possible, the on/off intervals will probably end up with power in the same range as the long threshold intervals.

The 5 weeks I had 3 serious mountain rides in the Appalachians which have definitely pushed further out what I can sustain. I still need a little more of that I think to hang with my peers - but I'm catching up.
 

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asgelle said:
So while long steady intervals may be best for one rider, the on/off intervlas described above may be better for another. Just as a note, if done properly, at as high a total effort as possible, the on/off intervals will probably end up with power in the same range as the long threshold intervals.
Intervals like the ones mpeterson mentioned (3-8 minutes, recovery 1:1 or 1:.5) are generally considered "vo2max intervals." They aren't as important as longer threshold intervals but are definitely a solid part of a typical endurance training program. They are especially important for athletes who have already raised their threshold to a high % of their v02max and need to raise the ceiling to keep improving.
 

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whoawhoa said:
Intervals like the ones mpeterson mentioned (3-8 minutes, recovery 1:1 or 1:.5) are generally considered "vo2max intervals." They aren't as important as longer threshold intervals but are definitely a solid part of a typical endurance training program. They are especially important for athletes who have already raised their threshold to a high % of their v02max and need to raise the ceiling to keep improving.
As I understood it, the recommendation was to ride at a moderate effort between hard periods. I took this to mean significantly above a recovery pace. That's why I surmised that the total average or normalized power for the hard and moderate efforts would fall in the threshold pace range making them just another variation on threshold training.
 

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asgelle said:
As I understood it, the recommendation was to ride at a moderate effort between hard periods. I took this to mean significantly above a recovery pace. That's why I surmised that the total average or normalized power for the hard and moderate efforts would fall in the threshold pace range making them just another variation on threshold training.

I wasn't sure which workout you were talking about, since Mpeterson suggested a few. In gneral, though, any hard workout of ~ 1 hr will have an NP close to threshold. that doesn't mean the benefits will be the same.
 

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I can understand your desire to recover from hard sprints, but I question why you were sprinting in the first place. A bridging effort or a late race attack is certainly ridden at a very high intensity, but an all out sprint runs counter to your objective. It makes no sense to bridge to a break and then promptly get shelled, or to make an attack and completely fall apart.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
tobu said:
I can understand your desire to recover from hard sprints, but I question why you were sprinting in the first place. A bridging effort or a late race attack is certainly ridden at a very high intensity, but an all out sprint runs counter to your objective. It makes no sense to bridge to a break and then promptly get shelled, or to make an attack and completely fall apart.
thats why i want to be able to recover, so i can do that sort of thing and not come apart. Yes i made my moves a bit to hard, but i still most likely would have fallen apart had I gone easier, and who knows if i would have bridged or my attack gotten any gap.

the reason i was doing that stuff was it was a training crit. in a normal crit i most likely would not have made those moves. But training crits are time to learn, so I tried out some new things, I made some (for me) agressive moves, the didnt work out, i learned. isnt that what a training crit should be about?
 

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It's always good to experiment in training races and try new things. Part of learning to attack or bridge is to learn how to measure your effort so that you can achieve your objectives. It takes time and experience to learn how to measure your effort and you are doing the right thing by experimenting in training races.
 
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