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Do not touch the trim.
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Sooooooo, with the domination of Mr. Boonen looking very Lance like (dare I say Eddy like) will all the Euro Anti-Lance people show the same disdain for Tom or is that just reserved for Americans? Also, where are the European press, shouldn't they be going through Quick-Step's garbage
Also, speaking of dominance, what is up with Gunn Rita Dahle? Womens pro MTBing is a farce. Because it's under the radar nobody seems to notice that in the last three years she's won every world cup race but 3 and won the Olympics and the last 2 Worlds......something smells fishy.
 

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OnTheRivet said:
Sooooooo, with the domination of Mr. Boonen looking very Lance like (dare I say Eddy like) will all the Euro Anti-Lance people show the same disdain for Tom or is that just reserved for Americans? Also, where are the European press, shouldn't they be going through Quick-Step's garbage
Boonen's a lot more like Eddy than he is like Lance inj the sense that besides having super strength, Boonen also has panache and the ability to be strong more than once a year. As for the jackals who want a doping scandal: Patience Grasshopper, word is out that the whole QS-team uses the same Prepparatore so speculative articles will follow suit.
 

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OnTheRivet said:
Sooooooo, with the domination of Mr. Boonen looking very Lance like (dare I say Eddy like) will all the Euro Anti-Lance people show the same disdain for Tom or is that just reserved for Americans? Also, where are the European press, shouldn't they be going through Quick-Step's garbage
No, I won't.

TB starts racing at the start of the season and will continue on through the season.

He doesn't hide until June then win one big race with the help of a team devoted to him and him alone, and then go to the beach.

He may never win the Tour but hey it's not the only race. Not winning the Tour never stopped De Vlaeminck becoming a cycling god, did it?
 

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No flame war intended but I can't relate to why these sort of lines of discussion are so interesting to people.
 

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rocco said:
No flame war intended but I can't relate to why these sort of lines of discussion are so interesting to people.
Far better to enjoy having a World Champion who seems to have beaten the curse in style!
 

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ultimobici said:
Far better to enjoy having a World Champion who seems to have beaten the curse in style!

I choose to enjoy the sport for what it's is or what it's worth. We, meaning the fans of cycling, have no way to know for sure who's clean, who's not or if everyone is doping so IMO there's no point in participating in the tail chasing. Blaming competitors like Merckx and Boonen for being a dominant winners does not compute. If anything or anyone is to blame it would be chance or fate or the loosers. If Boonen is on dope then odds are the 10 guys behind him are also. ...but again, we have no way to know for sure who's clean, who's not or if everyone is doping so there's no point. See how this quickly starts spinning out? Enjoy.
 

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Aside from that...

rocco said:
I choose to enjoy the sport for what it's is or what's worth. We, meaning the fans of cycling, have no way to know for sure who's clean, who's not or if everyone is doping so IMO there's no point in participating in the tail chasing. Blaming competitors like Merckx and Boonen for being a dominant winners does not compute. If anything or anyone is to blame it would be chance or fate or the loosers. If Boonen is on dope then odds are the 10 guys behind him are also. ...but again, we have no way to know for sure who's clean, who's not or if everyone is doping so there's no point. See how this quickly starts spinning out? Enjoy.
Aside from that, personally I just like watching the classics guys far better than the GT guys. I just like the style of classics racing a ton better. One day racing is where it's at. It's one of those, anything can happen situations. Normally, the strongest win, and that's it. That's not always so during a GT. The most consistent win those races. Anyway, I've found, myself included, there are plenty of people on here who don't want to hear silly stories about Lance (like who is going to play him in the movie of his life, or his romances) but would rather just talk straight about his racing and his results. It's not Lance that I hated on for winning, it's the homers who worship him and point out everything Lance that I hate.

That is all.
 

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Boonen and Lance have different personalities . . .

OnTheRivet said:
Sooooooo, with the domination of Mr. Boonen looking very Lance like (dare I say Eddy like) will all the Euro Anti-Lance people show the same disdain for Tom or is that just reserved for Americans?
I always have been under the impression that riders within the peloton disliked Lance because of his personality, not because of his dominance. Just compare him to Indurain, who dominated like Lance, but certainly was more well-liked. Meanwhile, I get the impression that it's harder to dislike Boonen. Plus, as an American, I can certainly face the fact that it's easier to dislike us than it is other nationalities.

As for the Lance-ophiles, out there, see, e.g. my uncle, that's another discussion.

One last thing, On the Rivet, success does not equal drugs. Once we presume guilt, kiss our values and the sport goodbye.
 

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OnTheRivet said:
Sooooooo, with the domination of Mr. Boonen looking very Lance like (dare I say Eddy like) will all the Euro Anti-Lance people show the same disdain for Tom or is that just reserved for Americans? Also, where are the European press, shouldn't they be going through Quick-Step's garbage
Also, speaking of dominance, what is up with Gunn Rita Dahle? Womens pro MTBing is a farce. Because it's under the radar nobody seems to notice that in the last three years she's won every world cup race but 3 and won the Olympics and the last 2 Worlds......something smells fishy.
Put Boonen on the No Spin Zone!
 

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I think the original poster was poking fun at people who complained about Lance's dominance that made races boring to watch. From that angle today's race was equally as boring - I could have told you who was going to win before the race, and bet a lot of money with 20km still remaining.

I happen to disagree with this line of thinking - dominance is awesome, not boring. The fact that Boonen could just demolish those guys on the climb while clearly being a marked man is amazing. The same goes for LA.

To win TdF you gotta specialize in grand Tours nowadays. It's not shameful tactic, but the rule of life. We'll see what Basso does this year, but makes me wonder how he could do at the tour if he didn't waste energy at Giro.

Expecting tour favorites to race year around and still win grant tours is sort of like asking for sprinters to win time trials, or time trialists to be top climbers. Specialization is reflection of competitiveness of the field, not lack of cojones.
 

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MaRider said:
I think the original poster was poking fun at people who complained about Lance's dominance that made races boring to watch. From that angle today's race was equally as boring - I could have told you who was going to win before the race, and bet a lot of money with 20km still remaining.

I happen to disagree with this line of thinking - dominance is awesome, not boring. The fact that Boonen could just demolish those guys on the climb while clearly being a marked man is amazing. The same goes for LA.

To win TdF you gotta specialize in grand Tours nowadays. It's not shameful tactic, but the rule of life. We'll see what Basso does this year, but makes me wonder how he could do at the tour if he didn't waste energy at Giro.

Expecting tour favorites to race year around and still win grant tours is sort of like asking for sprinters to win time trials, or time trialists to be top climbers. Specialization is reflection of competitiveness of the field, not lack of cojones.
I have to disagree.

Armstrong was the first rider to take the specialisation route to such an extreme extent. Before him Indrain rode the Ardennes classics to win, and Lemond rode the classics to win/support his team. Riis won Amstel in style in 97 against strong opposition.

I understand that specialisation happens. Sprinters have never won the tour, nor have timetrialists. The true champions though have won classics or world titles. Coppi, Hinault, Merckx, Fignon, Lemond & Indurain all contested a full season and graced the World Championship with their presence. LA seemed to not rate the Worlds other than his 93 win. Just because all the US public understand is the Tour is not reason enough to only race for 3 months of the season.

What would the US public make of a baseball team that only played in the final of the world series? They'd think they were taking the p*ss wouldn't they?

It's just the same in cycling when you turn up at the start of the Tour having ridden just the Dauphine to test your form. Seeing LA struggling up the Bergs in Flanders last year was embarrasing. He was a joke. At least his predecessors had the decency to turn up fit and ready to race.

With his retirement I hope that the Tour is returned to its proper position in the calendar, that of a Grand Tour as opposed to this suffocating entity it has become in recent years. The Giro is a far more exciting route this year and a true test of riders' abilities.
 

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MaRider said:
I think the original poster was poking fun at people who complained about Lance's dominance that made races boring to watch. From that angle today's race was equally as boring - I could have told you who was going to win before the race, and bet a lot of money with 20km still remaining.

I happen to disagree with this line of thinking - dominance is awesome, not boring. The fact that Boonen could just demolish those guys on the climb while clearly being a marked man is amazing. The same goes for LA.

To win TdF you gotta specialize in grand Tours nowadays. It's not shameful tactic, but the rule of life. We'll see what Basso does this year, but makes me wonder how he could do at the tour if he didn't waste energy at Giro.

Expecting tour favorites to race year around and still win grant tours is sort of like asking for sprinters to win time trials, or time trialists to be top climbers. Specialization is reflection of competitiveness of the field, not lack of cojones.
Exactly. Specialization is a fact of pro cycling that some fans just can't seem to accept. Do people believe Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, and Jim Brown suck because they didn't play both ways like they did in the '40s?
These people should speak directly with Bernard Hinault, Indurain, and Merckx. They'd tell them the same thing.
 

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Sad but true.

Jesse D Smith said:
Exactly. Specialization is a fact of pro cycling that some fans just can't seem to accept. Do people believe Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, and Jim Brown suck because they didn't play both ways like they did in the '40s?
These people should speak directly with Bernard Hinault, Indurain, and Merckx. They'd tell them the same thing.
I agree that specialization is a fact of modern life, but it still bums me out. Still, there are degrees of specialization, with Armstrong at the far extreme. I'd love to see a Tour winner also take a classic in the same year. The closest we've come in a while was Cunego at the Giro and Lombary.
 

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I'm in agreement that Armstrong's efforts to win the Tour were too specialized. It's very easy to not speak of him in the same breath as the greats for that very reason. When we speak of the Tour, we cannot overlook what he did in the face of intense competition, and his own personal adversity. Let us not forget that there were others in the Tour over the past 7 years who raced very little leading into the event, and did not achieve the same result.

On the contrary, it's important to bear in mind that it appears success in the Tour almost dictates a light schedule until July. The podium from the last 7 years has been light on Spring classics winners.
 

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Jesse D Smith said:
Exactly. Specialization is a fact of pro cycling that some fans just can't seem to accept. Do people believe Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, and Jim Brown suck because they didn't play both ways like they did in the '40s?
These people should speak directly with Bernard Hinault, Indurain, and Merckx. They'd tell them the same thing.
When one rider takes it to the nth degree it ceases to be fair competiton. I understand specialisation but won't accept shortening a season to three months. The season is 10 months old, so 3 months isn't even a third! Are we going to see a rider only riding the Tour in the near future?
 

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ultimobici said:
I have to disagree.

Armstrong was the first rider to take the specialisation route to such an extreme extent. Before him Indrain rode the Ardennes classics to win, and Lemond rode the classics to win/support his team. Riis won Amstel in style in 97 against strong opposition.
To be fair, it seems to me that Armstrong only started over-specializing in 2003 or thenabouts. In previous years he showed up to Liege and Amstel ready to win, and got close a few times.

I like your comment on his blowing up in de Ronde in 2005 though. The Phil/Paul duo was saying that it didn't make sense for T-mobile to send Ivanov up the front of the chasing group to increase the tempo, but that's exactly what blew Armstrong away. I can't remember if he finished that race or not, but it's good for him to show up and perhaps he should have showed up to more races to bring the audience.

Indurain and Lemond were great though, it's just too bad that they never won a monument.
 

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ultimobici said:
I have to disagree.

Armstrong was the first rider to take the specialisation route to such an extreme extent. Before him Indrain rode the Ardennes classics to win, and Lemond rode the classics to win/support his team. Riis won Amstel in style in 97 against strong opposition.

I understand that specialisation happens. Sprinters have never won the tour, nor have timetrialists. The true champions though have won classics or world titles. Coppi, Hinault, Merckx, Fignon, Lemond & Indurain all contested a full season and graced the World Championship with their presence. LA seemed to not rate the Worlds other than his 93 win. Just because all the US public understand is the Tour is not reason enough to only race for 3 months of the season.

What would the US public make of a baseball team that only played in the final of the world series? They'd think they were taking the p*ss wouldn't they?

It's just the same in cycling when you turn up at the start of the Tour having ridden just the Dauphine to test your form. Seeing LA struggling up the Bergs in Flanders last year was embarrasing. He was a joke. At least his predecessors had the decency to turn up fit and ready to race.

With his retirement I hope that the Tour is returned to its proper position in the calendar, that of a Grand Tour as opposed to this suffocating entity it has become in recent years. The Giro is a far more exciting route this year and a true test of riders' abilities.
Would I like to see a Paris-Roubaix and Flanders without Quick Step or Boonen? Sure. I'm a Hincapie fan, so seeing my man get beaten time and time again by a dominating rider starts to make Flanders and Roubaix seem like a suffocating entity. But I still can give Tom his due.
I'd sincerely suggest you take a look at Lance's race schedule for the past 7 years. I can't count the times his record has been posted showing he did just as many prep races as any other Tour contender. Saying he only rides the Dauphine is using bias selective memory at the very least.
That being said, I can understand how a non-Lance fan would really look forward to a Tour without him. The missing element of a start-to-finish close GC battle will be a welcome return, adding to the excitement of the daily stage win battle. It will also re-introduce the possiblity of a rider doing a GT double.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
ultimobici said:
When one rider takes it to the nth degree it ceases to be fair competiton. I understand specialisation but won't accept shortening a season to three months. The season is 10 months old, so 3 months isn't even a third! Are we going to see a rider only riding the Tour in the near future?
What are you smoking. Armstrong rode Flander the last two years, name me another Tour contender from the last two years who rode Flanders? I don't even really like the guy but this anti-Armstrong (anti-American?) mentality is clouding your thiniking. He finished 20th in Liege and 8th in Amstel in 2003. In 2002 he finished 2nd in the Criterium International in MARCH, finished 6th at the San Francisco gran prix in SEPTEMBER and finished top ten in a few World Cups in between and still had time to win this little race in France, sure seems like a full season to me. Get your facts straight before acting like an expert.
 

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OnTheRivet said:
What are you smoking. Armstrong rode Flander the last two years, name me another Tour contender from the last two years who rode Flanders? I don't even really like the guy but this anti-Armstrong (anti-American?) mentality is clouding your thiniking. He finished 20th in Liege and 8th in Amstel in 2003. In 2002 he finished 2nd in the Criterium International in MARCH, finished 6th at the San Francisco gran prix in SEPTEMBER and finished top ten in a few World Cups in between and still had time to win this little race in France, sure seems like a full season to me. Get your facts straight before acting like an expert.
What did he do in 04 & 05? Where was he in August? Why hasn't he ridden and finished the World's in years?

My problem with LA is his effect on the season and the Tour in particular. I remember the rumours that he'd tackle the classics a couple of years ago and was stoked.

Contrast his results in 2004 with Basso. He started at the Tour of the Med and finished at Lombardy. Yet he was still able to come third in the Tour. Fine he didn't win but he rode a season proper. I saw him on the attack on the Ghisallo in mid October and he wasn't just making up the numbers. Armstrong hasn't raced in Europe after the end of the tour since 2002.

The overriding feeling I have regarding LA's lack of atendance at the Monuments such as Liege, Flanders & Lombardy is disappointment. Because he had the ability to win them too but chose to focus on one race to the exclusion of all others. 7 Tours and no classics doesn't put him on the top level with Coppi, Hinault & Merckx for me. He is a two steps up from Indurain but not quite up there with the greats.

The greatest Tour rider ever but that's it.
 
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