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NeoRetroGrouch
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One of the races I did last weekend was a 63 rider, Masters 4/5 crit – 40 minutes plus 2 laps. Typical wide road, sweeping corners of an industrial/office park. I was doing fine when they put up the '3 laps to go'. On the up hill between corners 1 and 2, I drifted back to where there were 5-10 riders behind me. Corner 3 is after a down hill and went into a down wind straight and I came into the corner fast and outside. There is tons of room and I pass one rider and start to pass a second on the outside. He’s holding a good line until I get my front wheel beside him then he swings hard right. I can brake hard or I can swerve hard with him. There are riders behind me, though I do not know whether they are beside me. I lock the brakes and he pulls across inches in front of my wheel. Right or wrong? - TF
 

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passing in a corner is dicey business. once you committed to that, you didn't have very many good choices.
you say the guy "swerved right." were you turning left or right? I'm assuming it was a left turn, and he swung further than you thought to the outside. that sort of thing happens in a turn, because he may have chosen his line thinking that he had the whole rest of the road.
 

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Maybe he didn't want you to pass.
 

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bill said:
passing in a corner is dicey business. once you committed to that, you didn't have very many good choices.
you say the guy "swerved right." were you turning left or right? I'm assuming it was a left turn, and he swung further than you thought to the outside. that sort of thing happens in a turn, because he may have chosen his line thinking that he had the whole rest of the road.
If it was an office park, it sounds like the guy doesn't know how to corner. It really shouldn't be an issue to pass on the outside. If it was a tight right angle corner it could be another story. Trouble with locking them up is it can cause a chain reaction further back.

Did the second rider you passed (that swerved) hold the line of the guy in front of him?
 

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TurboTurtle said:
I lock the brakes and he pulls across inches in front of my wheel. Right or wrong? - TF
Wrong. The issue isn't the riders behind you (they have to watch out for themselves), rather by braking you killed off your momentum and had to work hard just to regain your speed. If you could have drifted to the outside while keeping your momentum, that would have been better. The fact is that when you decided to pass, you needed to be prepared to react to whatever any of the riders ahead of you did. Maybe as Grumpy said, this rider didn't want you to pass, maybe he wanted to start passing himself. Regardless, riders are under no obligation to hold any particular line just because it might suit you or me. Since you were the rider behind and so vulnerable to go down in the event of contact, the burden was on you to protect your front wheel by anticipating what the riders you were passing might do.
 

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If you were overlapped on him (i.e. your front wheel overlaps his rear), it's incumbent on you to protect your wheel and or make it known to the guy on whom you are overlapping that you are there. It's hard to tell from your description how quickly this went down, but assuming it wasn't a matter of miliseconds between the overlap by you and the swerve by him, I find that a "dude, I'm crossed up behind you on the left" to be a good preventative measure. Better yet would be to touch his hip with your hand, but you probably couldn't in the middle of a turn. Less preferred is to come in hot screaming "OUTSIDE!," but it's effective (not preferred 'cuz it kinda blows any strategic advantage and is otherwise just a hair dorky). But when in doubt use that big orofice on the front of your face to share what you are doing with people around you who could inadvertently send you to the hospital.

As for your reaction, given that he did swerve, well, I guess I'd swerve with him, my rationale being that the guy behind me who I take out because he's overlapping has the same duties to me as I had to the guy on my inside (i.e. see above). This is assuming that you came in on the farthest outside line and that you did not shoot a gap between a guy known to be farther outside than you.

So the fact that I didn't get a hip touch or an announcement that somebody was back there leaves me with a slim possibility that I'm going to cut someone off, whilst grabbing a handful of brake will certainly have the effect of screwing the pooch for someone behind me. I'd play the slim possibility over the certainty.

If I could think that fast, of course!

My $.02.
 

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asgelle said:
Wrong. The issue isn't the riders behind you (they have to watch out for themselves), rather by braking you killed off your momentum and had to work hard just to regain your speed. If you could have drifted to the outside while keeping your momentum, that would have been better. The fact is that when you decided to pass, you needed to be prepared to react to whatever any of the riders ahead of you did. Maybe as Grumpy said, this rider didn't want you to pass, maybe he wanted to start passing himself. Regardless, riders are under no obligation to hold any particular line just because it might suit you or me. Since you were the rider behind and so vulnerable to go down in the event of contact, the burden was on you to protect your front wheel by anticipating what the riders you were passing might do.
Of course, every situation is different, but I tend to agree that I would probably have also swung out instead of braking (unless by doing so I would run into another rider beside me, or into a curb or a pothole).

However, I disagree that the other rider was under no obligation to hold their line. Of course, riders can change choose what line they like, but it is wrong and against the rules to swerve abruptly if it will interfere with other riders (i.e. you can't hook other riders). Specifically, USCF rule 1O6 says:

"No rider may make an abrupt motion so as to interfer with the forward progress of another rider, either intentionally or by accident [relegation or disqualification; possible 20 days suspension if a crash results]."
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
bill said:
passing in a corner is dicey business. once you committed to that, you didn't have very many good choices.
you say the guy "swerved right." were you turning left or right? I'm assuming it was a left turn, and he swung further than you thought to the outside. that sort of thing happens in a turn, because he may have chosen his line thinking that he had the whole rest of the road.
Left turn. He was holding a normal line about 2/3 of the turn then sharply moved right to go wide. I'm not trying to analyze his move in this post (I did that loudly at the time), only mine. Brake or swerve. - TF
 

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TurboTurtle said:
One of the races I did last weekend was a 63 rider, Masters 4/5 crit – 40 minutes plus 2 laps. Typical wide road, sweeping corners of an industrial/office park. I was doing fine when they put up the '3 laps to go'. On the up hill between corners 1 and 2, I drifted back to where there were 5-10 riders behind me. Corner 3 is after a down hill and went into a down wind straight and I came into the corner fast and outside. There is tons of room and I pass one rider and start to pass a second on the outside. He’s holding a good line until I get my front wheel beside him then he swings hard right. I can brake hard or I can swerve hard with him. There are riders behind me, though I do not know whether they are beside me. I lock the brakes and he pulls across inches in front of my wheel. Right or wrong? - TF
The guy cut you off when you were passing on the outside line! Usually guys are trying that stunt when you come up the inside. Did his head even turn to see if someone was coming up or did he just simply yank his wheel over into your line? Sounds like you were trying to pass 8th place guy...if it had been me, I would have waiting for you to come by then looked for your wheel or the next gap that I could jump into.
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
asgelle said:
Wrong. The issue isn't the riders behind you (they have to watch out for themselves), rather by braking you killed off your momentum and had to work hard just to regain your speed. If you could have drifted to the outside while keeping your momentum, that would have been better. The fact is that when you decided to pass, you needed to be prepared to react to whatever any of the riders ahead of you did. Maybe as Grumpy said, this rider didn't want you to pass, maybe he wanted to start passing himself. Regardless, riders are under no obligation to hold any particular line just because it might suit you or me. Since you were the rider behind and so vulnerable to go down in the event of contact, the burden was on you to protect your front wheel by anticipating what the riders you were passing might do.
That is exactly what happened. I was off and done - finished solo. I hear what you are saying. - TF
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
shawndoggy said:
If you were overlapped on him (i.e. your front wheel overlaps his rear), it's incumbent on you to protect your wheel and or make it known to the guy on whom you are overlapping that you are there. It's hard to tell from your description how quickly this went down, but assuming it wasn't a matter of miliseconds between the overlap by you and the swerve by him, I find that a "dude, I'm crossed up behind you on the left" to be a good preventative measure. Better yet would be to touch his hip with your hand, but you probably couldn't in the middle of a turn. Less preferred is to come in hot screaming "OUTSIDE!," but it's effective (not preferred 'cuz it kinda blows any strategic advantage and is otherwise just a hair dorky). But when in doubt use that big orofice on the front of your face to share what you are doing with people around you who could inadvertently send you to the hospital.

As for your reaction, given that he did swerve, well, I guess I'd swerve with him, my rationale being that the guy behind me who I take out because he's overlapping has the same duties to me as I had to the guy on my inside (i.e. see above). This is assuming that you came in on the farthest outside line and that you did not shoot a gap between a guy known to be farther outside than you.

So the fact that I didn't get a hip touch or an announcement that somebody was back there leaves me with a slim possibility that I'm going to cut someone off, whilst grabbing a handful of brake will certainly have the effect of screwing the pooch for someone behind me. I'd play the slim possibility over the certainty.

If I could think that fast, of course!

My $.02.
First, when I ride hard, I breath hard and LOUD. (Combination of allergies and the physical shape of my throat.) Everybody knows where I am.

Second, I was no where near close enough to for a hip touch; too far back and out. He swung hard a good 6 feet from his previous line.

Though again, I'm not trying to ask about what he did (that's his problem), only about what I did. I cetainly did not 'decide' to brake.

TF
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for the replies and the answer is what I thought (and why I asked). I have to learn to stay off the brakes. - TF
 

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More noise

TurboTurtle said:
First, when I ride hard, I breath hard and LOUD. (Combination of allergies and the physical shape of my throat.) Everybody knows where I am.

Second, I was no where near close enough to for a hip touch; too far back and out. He swung hard a good 6 feet from his previous line.

Though again, I'm not trying to ask about what he did (that's his problem), only about what I did. I cetainly did not 'decide' to brake.
When you are doing the outside pass thing, from a safety standpoint it never hurts to say something. A fairly loud "I'm over here!" will keep the squirrels in their cages much of the time. Of course it will also telegraph your move, but I'd rather have somebody speed up than cut me off.
 

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Swerve. But only enough to avoid the collision. Usually a small line adjustment is all that's needed. Maybe 6 inches or a foot. If you're leaned in the middle of a corner just stand it up a little. Then make the eratic rider somone elses problem by putting him behind you.
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
hairscrambled said:
Swerve. But only enough to avoid the collision. Usually a small line adjustment is all that's needed. Maybe 6 inches or a foot. If you're leaned in the middle of a corner just stand it up a little. Then make the eratic rider somone elses problem by putting him behind you.
Like I said above, he moved over 6 feet. A small adjustment would not have done it. - TF
 

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Tell that to the guys yelling "HOld your line" in cat 5 races .. I don't think they'd agree :eek:

asgelle said:
rider didn't want you to pass, maybe he wanted to start passing himself. Regardless, riders are under no obligation to hold any particular line just because it might suit you or me. Since you were the rider behind and so vulnerable to go down in the event of contact, the burden was on you to protect your front wheel by anticipating what the riders you were passing might do.
 

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I had a guy inflict some pretty heavy damage on me doing that same type thing, but just on a straight area. Guy was on a Pinarello Prince...Irrelevant, but it pi$$ed me off more.

Anyways, I am riding a STRAIGHT LINE, buzzing along probably 27-28 mph, and he decides he wants to come back into the peloton after sitting outside to the left for a bit. Just comes straight across my front wheel. Nothing I could do. Dropped me and about 4-5 others right into me. I only see him at the spring training races. Saw him again in 2006 (this accident happened in 2005), and I kept my distance the best I could. Seemed like everytime I looked around me though, there he was. Did my best to stay away. He didn't put me down this year.
 
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