Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

· More Cowbell!
Joined
·
4,832 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This race in Bend usually brings out the big name domestic guys. This year it's attracting a few international names as well. Since Astana isn't going to the TdF, it's not surprising that Chris Horner could race Cascade since Bend is his hometown.

But Horner will be going against Tom Danielson. Word is that Steve Cozza, Danny Pate, and Tyler Farrar will also race.

The big question is will Horner be the GC favorite since it's his hometown? The only reason I ask is that it turns out that Levi Leipheimer is also going to show for the race.
 

· Cannot bench own weight
Joined
·
4,298 Posts
Comparing Horner to Danielson is unfair. Horner has proven his quality many times over. If Leipheimer is in shape and gunning for it, well then I suppose he'd be the favorite, though he may be working for Chris since it's his hometown. So yea, an Astana rider for the win.
 

· What offseason?
Joined
·
534 Posts
Einstruzende said:
Comparing Horner to Danielson is unfair. Horner has proven his quality many times over. If Leipheimer is in shape and gunning for it, well then I suppose he'd be the favorite, though he may be working for Chris since it's his hometown. So yea, an Astana rider for the win.
Well, Danielson has won the race in '03 - Horner hasn't and he's had many more opportunities. The truth is, this race has been decided in the TT for the last few years so given the way those two riders have been riding lately, I doubt the race will be won by either Horner or Danieslon. If he makes an effort, Leipheimer is a good choice because of his TT, but I would guess that a team that brings a full contingent of their best riders (Health Net for Rory Sutherland) will probably be just as likely to get the win.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,765 Posts
It will be interesting to see what Astana's strategy will be. My guess (hope?) is that Leipheimer has to be thrashed by now, so they'll set up Horner as their guy. Chris may be a domestique in Europe, but he's a bona fide American star. If LL can get team support for the Tour of Cal, Horner should be able to get it for Cascades. IMHO.

JR
 

· What offseason?
Joined
·
534 Posts
JSR said:
It will be interesting to see what Astana's strategy will be. My guess (hope?) is that Leipheimer has to be thrashed by now, so they'll set up Horner as their guy. Chris may be a domestique in Europe, but he's a bona fide American star. If LL can get team support for the Tour of Cal, Horner should be able to get it for Cascades. IMHO.

JR
Well - There's no indication that Astana is bringing a team to Cascade. Leipheimer and Horner are racing, but that's it. Astana is committed to having a team at the Tour of Austria during the same week.

I think Horner can win the race, but it'll be tough. The winner of Cascade is usually the winner of the TT. I assume Leipheimer is there to ride support for Horner. I'll be there... racing and watching. Should be fun.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,765 Posts
gray8110 said:
Well - There's no indication that Astana is bringing a team to Cascade.
JB is on his book tour. Maybe he'll show up and suit up!
JSR

edit: Thinking about it now, it would be interesting to see what kind of mayhem those two could do! Seems like a two-man team would have to ride off the front, and those are just the two guys to do that. Should be a good race.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,422 Posts
Danielson...

Gripped said:
This race in Bend usually brings out the big name domestic guys. This year it's attracting a few international names as well. Since Astana isn't going to the TdF, it's not surprising that Chris Horner could race Cascade since Bend is his hometown.

But Horner will be going against Tom Danielson. Word is that Steve Cozza, Danny Pate, and Tyler Farrar will also race.

The big question is will Horner be the GC favorite since it's his hometown? The only reason I ask is that it turns out that Levi Leipheimer is also going to show for the race.
Danielson probably won't finish. He'll get sick. Or crash. Or just suck, and go home. He ought to retire. This bike racing thing ain't working out for him too well.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
JSR said:
JB is on his book tour. Maybe he'll show up and suit up!
JSR

edit: Thinking about it now, it would be interesting to see what kind of mayhem those two could do! Seems like a two-man team would have to ride off the front, and those are just the two guys to do that. Should be a good race.
A couple of years ago just before Levi went over to Discovery he pretty much shredded the US nationals single handedly setting up George Hincapie for the win. I don't know the course but if there's a hard stage this scenario could play out again with the Levi/Horner duo? That'd be a tall order, there's plenty of talent at this one.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,422 Posts
Nope...

iliveonnitro said:
Danielson is a monster if he doesn't get sick or crash. I wish he was more consistent -- he's definitely a tour-caliber rider during his "on" days.

He won the 2005 TdG and 6th in the Vuelta in 2006. Don't sneeze on him, though, or he'll be out for 3 months.
He is NOT a monster. Even in that 6th place in the Vuelta, on the super hard hilly days, he got spit out the back of the bunch by the Spanish climbers. And that is where he is supposed to reign supreme.

Tour OF Georgia doesn't count as a major race in my opinion. Sure, it's a great race for the US, but the people showing up there aren't really targeting that race.

He's not a tour caliber rider, and he's never shown that, even on his "on" days. Which there are few of those. And believe me, he's using the "I got sick" excuse way too much. Nobody, I repeat, nobody gets sick that much. He's 30 years old, and he's long past the time to sh*t or get off of the pot, and I think it's about time for him to get off.

JV won't bring him back next year. Watch and see. He'll be riding for Rock Racing soon enough. Then again, I don't even think Ball will hire him, at least Ball's riders have won some big races.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,765 Posts
FWIW - Here are TD's palmares, as copied from his web site. IMHO, this shows a capable rider at the domestic level, who hasn't been able to make it work at the top level. Funny, these results actually look a lot like Chris Horner's in a way - great in the US, but modest in Europe. Yet we (or at least I) pull hard for any sign of individual success from Chris, but lament TD's inability to dominate.


2007 - Discovery Channel
Team Win Tour of Belgium
-supported overall winner Vladimir Gusev
3rd: Stage 3, Time Trial - Tour of Belgium

Team Win Tour de Georgia
-supported overall winner Jani Brajkovic

Team Win Vuelta a Castilla y Leon
-supported overall winner Alberto Contador

Team Win Paris - Nice
-supported overall winner Alberto Contador

Team Win Amgen Tour of California
- supported overall winner Levi Leipheimer


2006 - Discovery Channel
6th: Overall - Vuelta a España
1st: Stage 17, Vuelta a España
9th: Tour de l'Ain
1st: Overall - Tour of Austria
2nd: Overall - Tour de Georgia > Photo Gallery
1st: Stage 5 - Brasstown Bald, Tour de Georgia
10th: Tirreno-Adriatico
8th: Amgen Tour of California


2005 - Discovery Channel
7th: Vuelta a España
30th: Clasica San Sebastian
16th: Sachsen Tour
5th: Tour of Austria
1st: Tour de Georgia


2004 - Fassa Bortolo
1st Mt. Evans Hill Climb (new record)
11th Stage 5, Euskal Bizikleta
15th Stage 7, Tour of Switzerland
18th Tour of Romandie
19th Euskal Bizikleta


2003 - Saturn
1st Tour of Langkawi
1st Pomona Valley Stage Race
1st Redlands Bicycle Classic
1st Iron Horse Bicycle Classic (new record)
1st Nature Valley Grand Prix
1st Cascade Cycling Classic
1st Tour de Toona


2002 - Mercury
1st Tour of Qinghai Lake
1st Mt. Washington Hill Climb (new record)
1st US Collegiate MTB championships
1st Tour de los Alamos
2nd Iron Horse Bicycle Classic
8th Tour of the Gila


2001 - Sobe/Headshok
1st US Collegiate MTB championships
 

· What offseason?
Joined
·
534 Posts
Mosovich said:
only race two riders? I mean, they have 25 on the team.. Only 8 or 9 can race the tour of Austria.. I'm sure they'll have a full team, just maybe some guys we're not familiar with..
Astana has nothing to do with Horner and Leipheimer being there - those two are racing of their own volition. Bend is Horner's hometown and Leipheimer is the only other American on the squad. Astana isn't going to spend money to send bikes and people from Europe to Bend to race what from their point of view is a small race with very little prize money.

If you doubt that, here is the list of registered riders in the Pro/1 field ;)

http://www.mbsef.org/CascadeCyclingClassic/?page=registered&id=1
 

· What offseason?
Joined
·
534 Posts
terzo rene said:
Wow, TD's palmares are even thinner than I thought. He should stick to racing in the lab where is supposed to be great.
His palmares aren't that weak - there are plenty of support riders out there that don't have his palmares. Langkawi and Qinghai Lake aren't insignificant wins, neither is a mountain stage win and a 5th and 6th in the Vuelta. It's obvious that his talents have either been overstated, or the pressure that Ric Crawford et al put on him by declaring him the the great white hope has prevented him from reaching his potential, but his results aren't anything to sneeze at. His recent track record says he shouldn't expect to be more than a support rider with the possibility of a good ride on stages that suit him - if it weren't for his apparent frailty, he'd be perfectly good at that.

The best comparison I've ever seen to Danielson is to Jonathan Vaughters. Both were amazing climbers when it only involved a single climb - hillclimb specialists. In 2001, plenty of people talked like Vaughters (because of his then record time up Ventoux) was a candidate to win the Mountain TT in the Tour - he wasn't even competitive. He wasn't built for a 3 week grand tour, neither is Danielson. Both got sick, injured or crashed (or just ran into misfortune) much too frequently. Vaughters had the common sense to cut his Euro career short and race domestically before ending his career - Danielson might do the same. Danielson had one strike against him before he even started racing - he didn't get into road racing until he was fairly old. Most American pros have been racing since they were kids - JV was one of the best juniors in the country for several years. Danielson didn't get 5 or 6 years of grooming and coaching - just learning how to race a bike - as most of these guys do. He went from cat 4 to pro in the same year. There's a lot more to racing than putting power to the pedals.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,422 Posts
True...

gray8110 said:
His palmares aren't that weak - there are plenty of support riders out there that don't have his palmares. Langkawi and Qinghai Lake aren't insignificant wins, neither is a mountain stage win and a 5th and 6th in the Vuelta. It's obvious that his talents have either been overstated, or the pressure that Ric Crawford et al put on him by declaring him the the great white hope has prevented him from reaching his potential, but his results aren't anything to sneeze at. His recent track record says he shouldn't expect to be more than a support rider with the possibility of a good ride on stages that suit him - if it weren't for his apparent frailty, he'd be perfectly good at that.

The best comparison I've ever seen to Danielson is to Jonathan Vaughters. Both were amazing climbers when it only involved a single climb - hillclimb specialists. In 2001, plenty of people talked like Vaughters (because of his then record time up Ventoux) was a candidate to win the Mountain TT in the Tour - he wasn't even competitive. He wasn't built for a 3 week grand tour, neither is Danielson. Both got sick, injured or crashed (or just ran into misfortune) much too frequently. Vaughters had the common sense to cut his Euro career short and race domestically before ending his career - Danielson might do the same. Danielson had one strike against him before he even started racing - he didn't get into road racing until he was fairly old. Most American pros have been racing since they were kids - JV was one of the best juniors in the country for several years. Danielson didn't get 5 or 6 years of grooming and coaching - just learning how to race a bike - as most of these guys do. He went from cat 4 to pro in the same year. There's a lot more to racing than putting power to the pedals.
True, he didn't race road bikes until he was a little bit older, but he was still in college when he started, same as Hamilton, and there were a bunch of other riders that started late as well, who are better, or were better. He's 30 now. When are we going to stop hearing the excuse that he started late and needed to learn?

He raced with Armstrong, lots of good teaching there, not to mention other guys on the team at that time like Hincapie, who can coach along a younger guy pretty easily.

Before that, he raced with Horner, who, like him or not, he's one of the best race readers out there, and can call a race like nobody else. Horner will make a great DS some day, the guy sitting in the car, giving the info.

His results, for a support rider, would be great, but that's the kick of it isn't it? He's not supposed to be a support rider. He's supposed to be team leader in some races, and always ends up riding support because he coughs and flounders. You can only use the "I got sick" excuse so many times. I'd much rather have him just come out and say, "OK, I sucked it up."

His results in the Vuelta, while good for the top 10, he was still a LONG way off from winning, which is actually what bike racing is about. Nobody remembers who finished 6th place, and hell, with the Vuelta, there are many who don't even remember who won, or care. The Vuelta is a borgin 3rd rate grand tour, and shouldn't even be a grand tour. Basically, it's a race for a bunch of super skinny spanish guys to go out there, and kick each other in the nuts on the steepest mountains they can find. And when they're not in the mountains, they're riding endless miles across open, flat, arid, dry plains across Spain, ie, boring...

Danielson's results, for what he was supposed to be capable of, are thin, and lacking a lot. Mt Evan's Hillclimb? Come on. Don't even put that crap in there. When Ned Overend almost beats you, and he's been retired for a bunch of years now, it's not really anything more than a local race. That would be like Tom Boonen putting a kermesse he rode outside the door of his house and won on his "pro" results. Of course he won the Mt. Evans Hillclimb, he was, I think, the only ProTour rider there.
 

· Cannot bench own weight
Joined
·
4,298 Posts
magnolialover said:
... Of course he won the Mt. Evans Hillclimb, he was, I think, the only ProTour rider there.
Bingo.

That still doesn't take away from the fact that he is genetically gifted. I'd give my left one to be able to ride like that. He just isn't up there with the elite pro tour riders.
 

· What offseason?
Joined
·
534 Posts
I wouldn't disagree with anything you said - I bought into they hype on Danielson when he was with Mercury and Saturn, but by the time he was riding for Disco, it was pretty clear he wasn't going to be a world beater no matter how much Crawford et al tried to sell him.

I just think you have to separate the hype from reality when looking at him - I don't judge his palmares based on the false expectations that he and many others have placed on him. I think he's a pro-tour caliber rider when healthy - not a team leader and certainly not a grand tour contender.

The weird thing about Danielson is that he really hasn't developed or improved with experience. His best years were probably the two years with Mercury and Saturn. I agree with others that, like Vaughters, his best move might be to finish his career racing domestically.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top