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... so you are saying, if it feels good, it doesn't work?
It doesn't work that way, if it feels better, it is working! .... it may be witchcraft, but you are dealing with HS's, not the elements.
 

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2.5 mm is a tiny change in crank length. Its like a 1.5% change. The sole thickness on different shoes probably differs by a lot more than that. I think its all in your head.
It may be a small difference but I can feel the difference, just like raising or lowering the saddle an equivalent amount.
 

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2.5 mm is a tiny change in crank length. Its like a 1.5% change. The sole thickness on different shoes probably differs by a lot more than that. I think its all in your head.
2.5mm in the world of bike fit is not insignificant. Try raising or lowering your saddle 2.5mm and tell me that won't make a difference in how you feel.
 

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1.5% is insignificant in my book.
Your book is wrong. So tell me, is moving your saddle up or down 2.5mm insignificant? I know I can feel the difference here.
 

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Your book is wrong. So tell me, is moving your saddle up or down 2.5mm insignificant? I know I can feel the differnece here.
Statisticians draw it at 5%

An inch is 2.54 cm. 10% of 2.54 cm is .254 cm, or 2.54 mm, Right? So we're talking 1/10 of an inch. I think that's right. Get a tape measure and measure out 1/10 of an inch. Mark that distance on a piece of paper. It's tiny. It would difficult to even raise your seat post that little with any accuracy. Why don't stems come in finer increments than one cm if 2.5 mm is such a significant distance?

I know you consider yourself the god of bike fitting, but look at the paper again and tell me you'd really be able to tell a 1/10" difference in your crank length, or seat post length. I sure couldn't.
 

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Statisticians draw it at 5%

An inch is 2.54 cm. 10% of 2.54 cm is .254 cm, or 2.54 mm, Right? So we're talking 1/10 of an inch. I think that's right. Get a tape measure and measure out 1/10 of an inch. Mark that distance on a piece of paper. It's tiny. It would difficult to even raise your seat post that little with any accuracy. Why don't stems come in finer increments than one cm if 2.5 mm is such a significant distance?

I know you consider yourself the god of bike fitting, but look at the paper again and tell me you'd really be able to tell a 1/10" difference in your crank length, or seat post length. I sure couldn't.
Certainly this always boils down to what effort can be exuded within rider-physiology in an A/B situation.

Can you feel your out-of-balance tubeless wheels vs. a set of radial-balanced tube-type?? That's sometimes just 3gr...
 

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If I lower my seat 2.5mm's I can feel it because I lowered it, but if my seatpost slips I probably won't realize till it's 5mm or more. I'm not throwing stones here, but I think a lot of feeling a tiny adjustment is psychological.

How much of a difference is there in the thickness of one chamois to another? All chamois are not created equal, from brand to brand or model to model or just plain acceptable tolerances within the manufacturing process, yet how many of us are taking the time to measure the thickness from one to another? Shux, how dense are they and how much do they compress from one to another?

I think a lot of this is in our heads. That matters and it's not a small thing but I really think it's more psychological than physical.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
2.5 mm is a tiny change in crank length. Its like a 1.5% change. The sole thickness on different shoes probably differs by a lot more than that. I think its all in your head.
Well good for you. Seeing as how you think you know what's in my head you're obviously pyschic, how about passing on next week's lottery numbers. My body is telling me it's made a difference and that's what matters to me. What percentage of your height is a 2.5 mm seat change, but a lot of people regularly adjust their seats by this amount.
 

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Statisticians draw it at 5%

An inch is 2.54 cm. 10% of 2.54 cm is .254 cm, or 2.54 mm, Right? So we're talking 1/10 of an inch. I think that's right. Get a tape measure and measure out 1/10 of an inch. Mark that distance on a piece of paper. It's tiny. It would difficult to even raise your seat post that little with any accuracy. Why don't stems come in finer increments than one cm if 2.5 mm is such a significant distance?

I know you consider yourself the god of bike fitting, but look at the paper again and tell me you'd really be able to tell a 1/10" difference in your crank length, or seat post length. I sure couldn't.
First off, in the world of bike fit, 1 inch is HUGE. 1/10 of an inch is significant.

I just measured between the marks that I put on my seatpost. I needed to raise the saddle 3mm when I use my winter bike shoes. I noticed the difference immediaty when I got on the bike with my winter shoes and felt "low" and needed to raise the saddle to compensate. No psychology was involved here as I didn't make the adjustment until after I felt the difference. Comprende?
 

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Thickness of chamois, shoe soles, gloves, etc. 1/10" is pretty small.
Try riding without all of those and you will need to adjust your saddle.
 

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Your book is wrong. So tell me, is moving your saddle up or down 2.5mm insignificant? I know I can feel the difference here.
I can’t feel a 2mm change but my right knee sure can. I get wicked knee pain if it’s different. It was a real struggle on the MTB initially. I could get it dialed in but the damn seatpost would slip. I’d know what happened because my knee would tell me. A combination of marking the seatpost and lots of Ultra Hold hairspray fixed it permanently.
 

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Thickness of chamois, shoe soles, gloves, etc. 1/10" is pretty small.
I think for most people the small mm changes are really in saddle height. I don’t wear gloves. I wear the same shoe all the time and none of my chamois are made from wood. That said, I have had bibs with a chamois I couldn’t adjust to and they have been relegated... I have expensive shorts and cheap shorts that made the cut list because they feel right. Cheaps are for trainer and short targeted training. Assos for long rides. They all compress to about the same.
 

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Try riding without all of those and you will need to adjust your saddle.
Oh thank you. More golden nuggets from the God of Bike Fit. I'll adjust my saddle height 0.1" when I wear different shorts.

And to the OP, I mean no disrespect. If changing your crank length a tiny bit has helped you -- good for you. No reason to be defensive. I've been riding bikes for a lot of years. I have 5 road bikes. I've been down the rabbit hole on supposed improvements and never felt much difference. But maybe you do and that's OK. If it works for you -- real or imagined, that's all that counts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 · (Edited)
Oh thank you. More golden nuggets from the God of Bike Fit. I'll adjust my saddle height 0.1" when I wear different shorts.

And to the OP, I mean no disrespect. If changing your crank length a tiny bit has helped you -- good for you. No reason to be defensive. I've been riding bikes for a lot of years. I have 5 road bikes. I've been down the rabbit hole on supposed improvements and never felt much difference. But maybe you do and that's OK. If it works for you -- real or imagined, that's all that counts.
I'm not defensive, you were offensive. I originally posted to describe my experience and what I felt, because I had also heard numerous stories of "yes you can feel a 2.5mm difference, no you will not feel a 2.5mm difference". My knees aren't getting sore anymore, so it's definitely made a difference for me. I take offence to you playing amateur psychologist and telling me you suspect it's all in my head. For me it's real, not imagined.
 

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Oh thank you. More golden nuggets from the God of Bike Fit. I'll adjust my saddle height 0.1" when I wear different shorts.
Where do you come up with this? Do you really think there is a 0.1" difference between the chamois thickness any of your bike shorts? That is compressed under your butt.

"God of Bike Fit"? That one is rich.
 

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I for one feel every person is different in what they perceive and what is real . All that really matters is that person see a benefit . I also can feel a 2-3mm raise in my saddle height when I have it closely dialed in .
When I was in my early 20's to late 30's I was riding way to large of a frame , it didn't matter I was young and flexible but as I have aged things are not so loosey goosey anymore. Fit becomes more important down to the mm's , I for one am willing to try changes to continue riding for as long as I can .
 
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