[wim]

Not reality yet and may never be. But one has to wonder if this proposed ordinance is aimed at large group rides who, in the perception of some Chesapeake residents, are engaging in "bicycle racing."

Edit: sorry, website at link below taken down.

Proposed Ordinance Amendment Survey

 

[gte105u]

Maybe, hard to tell. That seems like it may be difficult to enforce. I could see this as a step to prohibiting people from using Strava and other such services that create de facto time trial races. The recent high profile incidents across the country of people being hurt/killed by cyclists has caught people's attention and right or wrong Strava and other timing services are becoming a point of concern.

 

[AlanE]

The problem with the proposed ordinance is that it fails to define what constitutes a "race" or "time trial". I wouldn't think that a group ride would fall under this ordinance, even if the participants are challenging each other for kom bragging rights or strava points. This seems to be aimed at events where there is a need to control or interfere with traffic.

I would be interested in seeing the additional clause that applies to events of 10 or more participants.

 

[wim]

Found the proposed definition, my emphases to point out the possible group ride or Strava implication. Can't find anything on that "10 or more" thing.

"A race refers to a head-to-head contest of speed or competition on bicycles or self-propelled or motorized vehicle inclusive of a starting line of massed riders and in which two or more riders ride abreast on a highway. The course may be point-to-point, a large circuit, or repeated laps of a shorter circuit. A race includes but is not necessarily limited to an organized event such as a road race, criterium, or portion of a duathlon, triathlon, or other multisport event.

A time trial is a comparative contest of speed or competition in which individuals or small teams of riders, separately ride the same route and distance for elapsed time. Time trials are generally started at preset intervals and held on an out-and-back or circuit course. A time trial includes but is not necessarily limited to an organized event in a single day or series of days which results in rankings or comparative time result monitoring by officials, awards, or qualification for other time trial competitions or events.

 

[Jay Strongbow]

Maybe Virginia's definition of "highway" is different than mine but I'm suprised bikes are allowed on them at all to begin with.

 

[wim]

Maybe Virginia's definition of "highway" is different than mine but I'm suprised bikes are allowed on them at all to begin with.

Why surprised? My 30+ years on Virginia roads have been pleasant and hassle-free for the most part.

What's interesting about that proposed ordinance is that non-cycling people are beginning to differentiate between commuting / DUI cyclists and so-called "racers." That's of some concern if you ride in lycra and with cleats on the bottom of your shoes.

 

[Jay Strongbow]

Why surprised? My 30+ years on Virginia roads have been pleasant and hassle-free for the most part.

What's interesting about that proposed ordinance is that non-cycling people are beginning to differentiate between commuting / DUI cyclists and so-called "racers." That's of some concern if you ride in lycra and with cleats on the bottom of your shoes.

Because in my entire life I don't think I've ever seen a bike on a "highway" (my/local definition of the highway which is quite different from my/local definition of roads) or heard of a cyclist who thought it was legal or would ride on one even if it was.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Because in my entire life I don't think I've ever seen a bike on a "highway" (my/local definition of the highway which is quite different from my/local definition of roads) or heard of a cyclist who thought it was legal or would ride on one even if it was.

What people generally think of as a 'highway' and the legal definition are quite different. In some states any public ROW for transportation is legally a highway. Here, every state and county road is a highway, even those that are 2-lane 30mph. What most people think of as a highway is either a controlled-access or limited-access highway though these make up less than about 5% of all highways.

 

[JCavilia]

Because in my entire life I don't think I've ever seen a bike on a "highway" (my/local definition of the highway which is quite different from my/local definition of roads) or heard of a cyclist who thought it was legal or would ride on one even if it was.

"Highway" in this context probably is synonymous with "public street." But even "highway" in the commonly more restricted sense includes lots of roads where cycling is permitted and reasonable. Around here, and undoubtedly where you live, many 2-and 4-lane roads with intersections and shoulders are designated as state "highways," with route numbers. I'll bet you ride on some such roads. You may be using the term to refer to what most people call "freeways" or "expressways" or "limited access roads." Those usually (but not always) don't permit bicycles.

 

[Jay Strongbow]

okay I guess I was putting too much stock in the use of the word highway in the link.

 

[PlatyPius]

okay I guess I was putting too much stock in the use of the word highway in the link.

There are a lot of highways around here- all legal for bicycles. Interstates/freeways on the other hand, are off-limits. Highways don't generally have exit ramps (the main concern) while freeways do.

 

[JCavilia]

A state "highway" in my town that I ride on frequently. Note state route number. Also note wide shoulder quite suitable for bicycles.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=41.717134,-72.539592&spn=0.000064,0.038409&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.717118,-72.539731&panoid=5lJBxQsxxWtSquUuM5E8iQ&cbp=12,72.74,,0,-9.12

 

[looigi]

There are a lot of highways around here- all legal for bicycles. Interstates/freeways on the other hand, are off-limits. Highways don't generally have exit ramps (the main concern) while freeways do.

Not necessarily. There are stretches of interstate highways where it is legal to ride. They usually have signs indicating as such and signs on the highway saying where cyclists must exit. I've ridden (legally) on interstates in southern CA, NV and CO.

Back to the topic: So if I finish a ride and my wife finishes the same ride, at what point does it become a race? Does it become race at the moment we compare our times, so prior to that, during the ride, it wasn't yet a race? It's kinda like Schrodinger's cat in the box paradox.

 

[mpre53]

You know, I've been a lawyer for almost 30 years now, in a few different states, and you know what I've found to be true? Most judges---not all, granted, but the overwhelming majority of them---apply common sense when they interpret a law. And when they have to interpret a law enacted by a legislature, one of the things they look at is the legislative history including the purpose behind the law.

I wouldn't worry about group rides, charity events (which usually have police marshalls at cross streets to stop traffic for the participants) and an individual trying to set a PR or KOM on a Strava segment being interpreted as "racing".

BTW, that "including but not limited to" language is part of a whole host of laws, and when judges have to find the meaning of it, they usually tend to use their common sense.

 

[wim]

Most judges---not all, granted, but the overwhelming majority of them---apply common sense when they interpret a law.

I can't argue with that. But that doesn't change my point about people wanting something done about groups of what they think are "racers" rolling down the local roads. BTW, the web page I linked with the survey and further linking you to the proposed ordinance has been taken down. Sort of kills this thread, I suppose.

 

[Camilo]

You know, I've been a lawyer for almost 30 years now, in a few different states, and you know what I've found to be true? Most judges---not all, granted, but the overwhelming majority of them---apply common sense when they interpret a law. And when they have to interpret a law enacted by a legislature, one of the things they look at is the legislative history including the purpose behind the law.

I wouldn't worry about group rides, charity events (which usually have police marshalls at cross streets to stop traffic for the participants) and an individual trying to set a PR or KOM on a Strava segment being interpreted as "racing".

BTW, that "including but not limited to" language is part of a whole host of laws, and when judges have to find the meaning of it, they usually tend to use their common sense.

Yea, reading the language quoted, I can't see how anyone would feel it applies to anything but actual organized races. Some people are paranoid I guess.

 

[MXL]

Maybe Virginia's definition of "highway" is different than mine but I'm suprised bikes are allowed on them at all to begin with.

Most states define a "highway" as any publicly maintained road. You may be thinking of a freeway. Bikes are not allowed on freeways, but are allowed on highways.

 

[Dave Cutter]

....... What's interesting about that proposed ordinance is that non-cycling people are beginning to differentiate between commuting / DUI cyclists and so-called "racers." That's of some concern if you ride in lycra and with cleats on the bottom of your shoes.

I agree! For a while.... I blamed the finger-flipping cyclists for the disfavor that many of us sport cyclist experience from motorist. Then I wondered if maybe some of the more reckless cyclists also added to the dislike for spandex wearing road bike riding cyclists. Maybe it's just the idea that sport cyclist are often grown men on pricey toys out playing on public roads/streets/ and highways.

I don't know exactly why.... but the general motoring public doesn't really seem to enjoy sharing with sport cyclist.

Yet... it seems the average person ether doesn't mind or tolerates the occasional poor person in work clothes and no helmet on a cheap old bike... often riding on the sidewalks.

 

[Kerry Irons]

Maybe Virginia's definition of "highway" is different than mine but I'm suprised bikes are allowed on them at all to begin with.

Apparently your definition of "highway" is what everyone else refers to as a "freeway" or an "expressway." In law, the "highway" is any public road.

 

[mrcookie]

Most states define a "highway" as any publicly maintained road. You may be thinking of a freeway. Bikes are not allowed on freeways, but are allowed on highways.

My daily commute to work includes 6 or so miles of interstate 70. I regularly go around state troopers idling in the breakdown lane. Absolutely legal here to do so, since the shortest alternative route is around 100 miles long.