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what are the advantages of clincher vs tubular - I was looking at picking up some Ksyriums on e-bay and have noticed the tubular costs much less... Whats the dif???

Thanks
 

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robbob said:
what are the advantages of clincher vs tubular - I was looking at picking up some Ksyriums on e-bay and have noticed the tubular costs much less... Whats the dif???

Thanks
Wheels are lighter & tyres are lighter. Due to nearly all of the air pocket being above the rim tubulars are more comfortable & handle better.

But, if you flat, they're more hassle. Repairs are fiddly, unless you use Tufo's with their own sealant. This can work on other makes, but not as effectively. Tufo's have the tube, casing & tread vulcanised together so they seal more easily. This can affect the suppleness of the tyre, so they aren't the most plush of tubs to ride.

www.tufo.com
 

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ru1-2cycle said:
Yes...your spokes will get all loose and the rim may get permanent damage.
Yeah, but if your in a crit, you can just keep going until you get to the wheel pit.
 

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Counterpoint

ultimobici said:
Wheels are lighter & tyres are lighter.
For comparable strength and durability, tubular rims are lighter, but tires are really about the same weight. (Actually, tubular tires are heavier, but that's only because the weight includes the tube inside. Combined weight of tire and tube of kevlar bead clinchers are about the same as for tubulars.)

On the minus side, tubulars have been demonstrated to generally have higher rolling resistance than clinchers (all else being equal).

ultimobici said:
Due to nearly all of the air pocket being above the rim tubulars are more comfortable & handle better.
But on the other hand, clinchers have a larger total air pocket, since it extends into the rim. Comfort is a matter of personal perception, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that there truly is a real difference in handling. Some of the best bike handling riders I know ride clinchers exclusively.
 

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If you have not been around the barn with tubulars and have no real need for them, I'd steer clear. the tires are costly, difficult to repair, require special glue to mount, will fall off when cornering if not mounted correctly and don't really perform all that much better than a good clincher with a latex tube. I ride tubulars, but can't really suggest that someone new to them should go down that road. The one exception is cyclocross, they are a good thing for that event, sort of.
 

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robbob said:
what are the advantages of clincher vs tubular - I was looking at picking up some Ksyriums on e-bay and have noticed the tubular costs much less... Whats the dif???

Thanks
Okay, this might not be fair, given the time gap.

But I once rode/raced almost exclusively on tubs. 700C happened when I was out of the sport for a while - 30 years!

Save you doing the sums - I last raced in 1973, didn't ride again seriously until 2004!

Even back then, I was one of few folk who could actually repair a tub. There's nothing to it, as long as you have the right stuff to do the job. Once one had been repaired, even if I repaired it myself, it was downgraded to training or time-trialing, depending on its weight unless economics forced it back onto my road race wheels ...

At that, I would never have contemplated the idea of a road-side tub repair :eek:

Never recall any issues with sticking them onto rims, losing them while racing or even having to swap a tub post flat and the replacement not sticking after being fitted.

OTOH - seeing as things like really nice clincher tyres and modern wheels have been invented while I was out getting fat and idle, would only put up with the mess and fuss of tubs if I won the lottery and bought a set to cruise the neighbourhood on my $10,000 custom Ti weight-weenie poser bike :rolleyes: ! They're just too much trouble and fuss for whatever advantage an overweight 56 year old would gain over my present decent set of clinchers.

The viewpoint of a screaming fast 20-something Div 1 pro with 2% body fat and a three page palmares may be somewhat different :)

Sometimes progress can actually be good :)


Regards

Dereck
 

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Wow! Several posts and no religious argument.

What's the world coming to?!

Resale on tubulars sucks. DAMHIK

If you go the tubie route, I'd seriously think about saving them for racing and train on clinchers. (at least that's what I do unless I'm on my cross bike)

M
 

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there is a great tubular review elsewhere on this forum just search for it............


it seems to me, just like metal frame bikes are falling out of favor for carbon frames, i think the same process is happening with wheels.............however it is much more difficult to make a carbon clincher versus a carbon tubular.............this fact may just ressurect tubulars to more common use..............

a good light clincher weighs around 1600 grams, and a good light tubular weighs in the 1100-1200 gram range, roughly a pound lighter.........a significant improvement esp since it is rotating weight.........basically the only problem with tubulars is flat repair.........interestingly 2 companies that i know of make a tubular repair fix-flat type stuff , one is tufo and the other is vitorria.........if these really worked, then flat repair becomes easier than a clincher, which requires patching or replacing the tube.........


cost - good tubular tire and rims are expensive, but so are good carbon bikes... i ride a 4500$ carbon bike, so for me a 1600$ set of wheels is an option..........the next dillemma for me is which rim.......lighter shallow less aero rim or slightly heavier, stiffer but more aero........
 

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I rode tubs on a test wheelset for a week and I didn´t get used to them.

I had no confidence while cornering, cause a rim with an edge will stick to the clincher, and the tubs felt like they´re really only sitting on top of the rim, and in the curves they felt very "round", while the clinchers always "bite" or cut themselves into the road, when you throw your bike into the corner.-maybe u get used to it and ir was just a phsycholgical thing, in my mind.

The weight-issue is an advantge with the tubulars, cause a 1k wheelset really makes you drive like having lost 3 kilos of bodyweight in a diet, but without dieting just mounting those wheels.
 

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newdoc said:
a good light clincher weighs around 1600 grams, and a good light tubular weighs in the 1100-1200 gram range, roughly a pound lighter.........
That's a bit of an exageration. Tubular wheels and clincher wheels differ only in the rim (the the tires that are mounted). Tubular tires weigh about the same as equivalent clinchers and tubes. Tubular rims weight 50-100 grams less than equivalent clincher rims. That makes a total difference of about 100-200 grams for a set of wheels between tubulars and clinchers. The difference in rolling resistance between tubulars (higher) and clinchers (lower) generally cancel out even this weight difference. Everything else being equal, the lower weight of tubulars only becomes an advantage under very high accelerations or when climbing very, very steep slopes.


newdoc said:
a significant improvement esp since it is rotating weight.........
Rotating mass only makes a difference when acceleration, not at steady state speeds (even when climbing). Due to the higher rolling resistance of tubulars, you'd have to be acceleration at a very high rate to make up for the higher rolling resistance.


newdoc said:
basically the only problem with tubulars is flat repair.........interestingly 2 companies that i know of make a tubular repair fix-flat type stuff , one is tufo and the other is vitorria.........
Tire sealants can work to prevent flats in many cases. But they add additional weight, and increase rolling resistance.
 

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Mark McM said:
That's a bit of an exageration. Tubular wheels and clincher wheels differ only in the rim (the the tires that are mounted). Tubular tires weigh about the same as equivalent clinchers and tubes. Tubular rims weight 50-100 grams less than equivalent clincher rims. That makes a total difference of about 100-200 grams for a set of wheels between tubulars and clinchers. The difference in rolling resistance between tubulars (higher) and clinchers (lower) generally cancel out even this weight difference. Everything else being equal, the lower weight of tubulars only becomes an advantage under very high accelerations or when climbing very, very steep slopes.


interesting thoughts.......but if i ride durace 7801 clinchers and they weigh according to shimano specs about 1620 grams............and a rolf tdf38 weighs 1175 grams for the set.....the math says a difference of 445 grams..........therefore I don't understand what the exageration is ???[/U]........plus the carbon tubulars are 38 mm deep rather than 23mm deep, i.e. considerably more aero, and therefore faster on the flats.....


Rotating mass only makes a difference when acceleration, not at steady state speeds (even when climbing).

but the very act of climbing is really many micro-accelerations linked together.....the bike and wheels will feel more responsive.......

Due to the higher rolling resistance of tubulars, you'd have to be acceleration at a very high rate to make up for the higher rolling resistance.

this is a highly variable phenomenon......that changes considerably due the tire itself or its air pressure........tubulars are capable of much higher air pressures........and the tubular tire shape has been reported to be more aero..




Tire sealants can work to prevent flats in many cases. But they add additional weight, and increase rolling resistance.


for sure, the point i was trying to make is, it would be easy to repair a flat on the road with the instant repair goop, and still be able to get home or to the finish on a long ride/race or tour........
 

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Mark McM said:
For comparable strength and durability, tubular rims are lighter, but tires are really about the same weight. (Actually, tubular tires are heavier, but that's only because the weight includes the tube inside. Combined weight of tire and tube of kevlar bead clinchers are about the same as for tubulars.)
I ride <215g tubs which are not hyper light. Tufo do <160g tyres. Conti Supersonic 700 x 20's come in at 140 with the tube at 50g. Couple that with the heavier rim & tubs win on that front, hands down.

On the minus side, tubulars have been demonstrated to generally have higher rolling resistance than clinchers (all else being equal).
If that's so, why do professional teams still use them. Asics were sponsored by Michelin who don't market tubs, but had special lookalike tubs made for the team! Why would they do that if the clinchers were more efficient & lighter?

But on the other hand, clinchers have a larger total air pocket, since it extends into the rim.
Ride a pair of clinchers then ride a comprable set of tubs. You'll see the difference, tubs are plusher, especially at higher pressures.
Some of the best bike handling riders I know ride clinchers exclusively.
Their bike handling has nothing to do with their wheel/tyre choice, I suspect their reasons for using clinchers are economic & hassle factor.
 

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ultimobici said:
I ride <215g tubs which are not hyper light. Tufo do <160g tyres. Conti Supersonic 700 x 20's come in at 140 with the tube at 50g. Couple that with the heavier rim & tubs win on that front, hands down.
There are <215 tubulars, but these are hardly the norm. A quick check on the Weight Weenies site (Weight Weenies tire list) shows that all the <215 tubular tires are 20mm or narrower, and most are classified as TT or special use category. More typical tubulars found on racing bikes are in the 250-300 gram range. If you were to compare clincher tires and tubular tires of otherwise identical construction (for example, the Vittoria Corsa CX tubular and Vittoria Open Corsa CX clincher), you'd find that the tubulars and clinchers+tubes were nearly identical in weight.


ultimobici said:
If that's so, why do professional teams still use them. Asics were sponsored by Michelin who don't market tubs, but had special lookalike tubs made for the team! Why would they do that if the clinchers were more efficient & lighter.
I can't answer why pro teams use them, other than to point out that traditions die hard even among professional mechanics. However, while tubular rims can be lighter, it has been demonstrated again and again that tubular tires have more rolling resistance. The higher rolling resistance of tubulars has been shown so many times under so many different independent tests, there can no longer be any doubt. Here is just one such test: Tire test


ultimobici said:
Their bike handling has nothing to do with their wheel/tyre choice ...
That's exactly the point - bike handling is not a consideration in deciding between clinchers and tubulars, since there is no evidence that tubulars are intrinsically better for handling.
 

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Mark McM said:
Rotating mass only makes a difference when acceleration, not at steady state speeds (even when climbing). Due to the higher rolling resistance of tubulars, you'd have to be acceleration at a very high rate to make up for the higher rolling resistance.
You keep touting the higher rolling resistance of tubulars, but the difference between a good clincher, and a good tubular are almost nothing. I would say that the difference between, say, a pro2race tire, and the Veloflex carbon, is pretty miniscule.... .0042 vs. .0049. Of course if you compare a good clincher to a crappy tubular like tufo, then your spot on.

Tire CRR
Deda Tre Giro d'Italia 0.0038
Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX 0.0039
Michelin Pro 2 Race 0.0042
Vittoria Diamante Pro Rain 0.0044
Michelin Megamium 2 0.0047
Pariba Revolution 0.0048
Veloflex Carbon (Tubular) 0.0049
Michelin Carbon 0.0050
Gommitalia Route du Nord (Tubular) 0.0050
Panaracer Stradius Pro 0.0051
Schwalbe Stelvio Plus 0.0052
Gommitalia Platinum (Tubular) 0.0053
Vittoria Corsa Evo CX (Tubular) 0.0054
Schwalbe Stelvio Evolution Front 0.0056
Continental GP Force (rear specific) 0.0057
Hutchinson Fusion 0.0057
Schwalbe Stelvio Evolution Rear 0.0057
Vittoria Corsa Evo KS (Tubular) 0.0057
Continental Ultra GatorSkin 0.0058
Ritchey Pro Race Slick WCS 0.0058
Schwalbe Stelvio 0.0059
Continental Competition (Tubular) 0.0059
Veloflex Roubaix (Tubular) 0.0059
Continental Podium (Tubular) 0.0060
Specialized S-Works Mondo 0.0061
Continental GP 3000 0.0067
Hutchinson Top Speed 0.0069
Schwalbe Stelvio (Tubular) 0.0069
Continental GP Attack (front specific) 0.0073
Tufo Elite Jet (Tubular) 0.0073
Schwalbe Montello 300 (Tubular) 0.0075
Tufo Hi-Composite Carbon (Tubular) 0.0077

Average Clincher: 0.0054
Average Tubular: 0.0061
 

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Mark McM said:
There are <215 tubulars, but these are hardly the norm. A quick check on the Weight Weenies site (Weight Weenies tire list) shows that all the <215 tubular tires are 20mm or narrower, and most are classified as TT or special use category.
Tufo S3 Lite <215 g are 21mm Road Racing Tubs. They equate to Conti Supersonics or Deda Tre Tyres in that they are not for every day use.

http://www.tufo.com/index.php?lg=en&mn=1&id=53
 

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thanks for the info on the tires..........I wonder at what air pressure those numbers were determined ??........prob very difficult to know, but would be interesting if the data were taken at matched air pressure of tubular versus clincher , or if it was measured at max pressure of either tire ??
 

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newdoc said:
thanks for the info on the tires..........I wonder at what air pressure those numbers were determined ??........prob very difficult to know, but would be interesting if the data were taken at matched air pressure of tubular versus clincher , or if it was measured at max pressure of either tire ??
101 psi.
 
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