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so if the 4 & 5 fields are combined, is there a Cat 4 winner and a 5 winner? or just one set of placings? so if I am a 5, and place 4th beaten by 3 cat 4 riders, do I get points for being 4th, or for being the first cat 5?

thanks
 

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bauerb said:
so if the 4 & 5 fields are combined, is there a Cat 4 winner and a 5 winner? or just one set of placings? so if I am a 5, and place 4th beaten by 3 cat 4 riders, do I get points for being 4th, or for being the first cat 5?

thanks
You would place 1st for the Cat 5s. They almost always place separately, unless there were some complications (camera malfunction, etc.).
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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bauerb said:
so if the 4 & 5 fields are combined, is there a Cat 4 winner and a 5 winner? or just one set of placings? so if I am a 5, and place 4th beaten by 3 cat 4 riders, do I get points for being 4th, or for being the first cat 5?

thanks
You don't need points as a Cat5. - TF
 

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It depends on the event

bauerb said:
so if the 4 & 5 fields are combined, is there a Cat 4 winner and a 5 winner? or just one set of placings? so if I am a 5, and place 4th beaten by 3 cat 4 riders, do I get points for being 4th, or for being the first cat 5?
It depends on the particular race, but in general there are only one set of placings, unless it is specifically advertised that there will be seperate placings. In most cases, unless the race were part of a racing series, they would not have seperate placings.

Many races can not afford to have the special cameras required to place all the riders. In those cases, it can be very difficult, if not impossible, to try to differentiate between different category riders. Consider: What if there is a mass sprint of 60 riders, where the first six cat. 5 riders finish overall in 3rd, 8th, 12th, 25th, 35th and 52nd position - would you be able to pick these riders out of the mass blur sprinting across the finish line? It can be difficult enough to pick the top 6 or 10, let alone people who might be somewhere in the middle of the pack.

In terms of upgrade points, it is a bit dicier. You only get upgrade points based on your actual finish place, not your place in relation to others of your category. For example, if you were the second cat. 5 rider to finish, but you finished 12th overall, you would not get any upgrade points.
 

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bauerb said:
so if the 4 & 5 fields are combined, is there a Cat 4 winner and a 5 winner? or just one set of placings? so if I am a 5, and place 4th beaten by 3 cat 4 riders, do I get points for being 4th, or for being the first cat 5?

thanks
Where I race you would simply get 4th in the cat 4/5 race. No cat 4 and cat 5 winner.
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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dagger said:
You and your team needs the points if you part of a series.
Upgrade points.

If you are in a series, I would think that the answer would be obvious. If the have 4/5 races and are giving overall prizes for 5s, thenm they are scoring separately. - TF
 

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bragging rights

argylesocks said:
agree. but you can still have "bragging rights" over being the top cat5.
Since the present rules don't allow prizes for cat. 5 races, bragging rights is about all you're racing for anyway. The actual value of bragging rights for a race at the lowest introductory level of a sport is a whole other debate ...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
interesting, but

lets just pretend that I wanted to move up to Cat 4 sooner, rather than later. and lets suppose that I need to build a resume of races and apply to USAC for moving up a cat. it would sure look better if I have a bunch of top 5 finishes. now if I get buried in a cat4/5 combined race, it really doesn't help my resume much.

as for it not being much to brag about at the lowest level of racing: that's a pretty freakin arrogant statement if I've ever heard one. don't know what other are used to, but around me the cat 5 fields run about 30 deep, with 90% plus of the racers being serious riders belonging to serious clubs. I will not try to pretend that these are the most difficult races, but to produce a string of top 3 finishes in cat 5 races around here, does in fact say something about your abilities
 

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being that a lot of cat 5s race with 4s
i'd be more focused on looking at your needs to upgrade to Cat 3

if you're a 5 and you're plaing in the top 5 alongside 4s add it to your resume for applying for Cat 3.
 

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Read on . . .

"USA Cycling may add additional REQUIREMENTS for upgrading at their discretion. Any such changes shall be made available on the website." (emphasis added)

I think in the USCF intends for the "guidelines" to be requirments. That said, I know they are often overlooked. Why is that? I think it devalues the process if everyone isn't required to do their 10 mass starts. Might also get rid of some of the stigma attached to Cat 5 racers if EVERYONE had to go through all 10 races.

Just curious-- who on this board has upgraded with less than 10 mass starts?

soup
 

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NeoRetroGrouch
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soup67 said:
"USA Cycling may add additional REQUIREMENTS for upgrading at their discretion. Any such changes shall be made available on the website." (emphasis added)

I think in the USCF intends for the "guidelines" to be requirments. That said, I know they are often overlooked. Why is that? I think it devalues the process if everyone isn't required to do their 10 mass starts. Might also get rid of some of the stigma attached to Cat 5 racers if EVERYONE had to go through all 10 races.

Just curious-- who on this board has upgraded with less than 10 mass starts?

soup
Less than 10 USCF Cat5 starts. - TF
 

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bauerb said:
as for it not being much to brag about at the lowest level of racing: that's a pretty freakin arrogant statement if I've ever heard one. don't know what other are used to, but around me the cat 5 fields run about 30 deep, with 90% plus of the racers being serious riders belonging to serious clubs. I will not try to pretend that these are the most difficult races, but to produce a string of top 3 finishes in cat 5 races around here, does in fact say something about your abilities
Gee, sorry, but I never bought into the "self-esteem" movement. Winning a cat. 5 race merely means that you are the biggest fish in the littlest pond. Cat. 5 races are merely a stepping stone - and that's all they are intended to be.

Maybe a lot of the riders in the cat. 5 races think of themselves as "serious riders", but if it only takes 10 races to move out of cat. 5 (regardless of placing), just how serious can it be? If there is any arrogance here, it is those beginner racers who believe that they just because they've been in a handful of races, they should be considered to be seasoned veterans.

In case you're interested - around here (New England) the cat. 5 fields typically get filled to the maximum (50 riders), and usually sell out weeks before the event. Higher category races typically have about 80-100 riders, although I've raced in fields as large as 150.
 

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To follow your logic . . .

you could have gone from a Cat Nothing to a Cat 3 based on your experience alone (40 races? All you needed was 25 field finishes to be a 3).

According to the rules, one needs 10 "qualifying" races. A qualifying crit race for a Cat 5 looking to be 4 is a Cat 5 crit at least 10 miles long with a filed of at least 10. If your training races were not Cat 5 crits or road races, I don't think they qualified. Surely for the race to be a quallifiying Cat 5 race it needs to be USCF santioned?t

That said, people get upgraded all the time for all sorts of reasons. Nothing wrong with it, I just wonder why it is so easy to do and why the regs. are not enforced more stringently.

What's wrong with paying one's dues and doing 10 Cat 5 mass starts?

soup
 

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soup67 said:
you could have gone from a Cat Nothing to a Cat 3 based on your experience alone (40 races? All you needed was 25 field finishes to be a 3).

According to the rules, one needs 10 "qualifying" races. A qualifying crit race for a Cat 5 looking to be 4 is a Cat 5 crit at least 10 miles long with a filed of at least 10. If your training races were not Cat 5 crits or road races, I don't think they qualified. Surely for the race to be a quallifiying Cat 5 race it needs to be USCF santioned?t

That said, people get upgraded all the time for all sorts of reasons. Nothing wrong with it, I just wonder why it is so easy to do and why the regs. are not enforced more stringently.

What's wrong with paying one's dues and doing 10 Cat 5 mass starts?

soup
Well now you made me look... and you are right, the language looks different from what I remember. My upgrade out of the 5s occurred 3 years ago, so maybe the language changed. Note though, that the 5 to 4 requirements are very minimal 10 person fields, race at least ten miles.

In response to the "paying one's dues" question, well, it's all relative, I guess. I'm in Reno, and except for the district championships the closest races are 120 miles away and most are 200-300+ (not to mention over a 7000' pass that's frequently closed or subject to chain restrictions through May). Because of family and job commitments, on a good year I do about 6 USCF events.

And we've got a pretty vibrant local grassroots racing scene (many district champs, in a very competitive district, hail from our tiny burg). The rule is intended to show that you've participated in ten races. If I can send in a race resume which show results in 40 (with participation far in excess of the ten rider minimum), what's the harm in catting me up?

(Oh, and I got from 4 to 3 on USCF points, albeit over a bit longer period than 12 mos)
 
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