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Spunout said:
How can a break lap the field, and then the other riders who weren't lapped, help the lappers in the finale?
Just for background info on what happened:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2008/jun08/cscinvitational08


"There was a definite divide in the field with three major Tour de France-bound teams - Team CSC, High Road and Slipstream - versus the domestics. But being on the home turf does have its advantages, noticeable from break rider Roger Hammond (High Road), who was expecting a different outcome when the break lapped the field.

"It was strange racing really," he said. "It was ok until 30 laps to go when we lapped the peloton, and it should have been race over, but I don't understand the rules over here. We work hard to separate the guys from their teams, like Colavita who has half the peloton here.

"So we attack until there are only two of them left but we lap the field and then they have eight riders again," he added. "So if I come back next year I'll just sit in and do nothing, because it makes no difference!""
 

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Usual rule I have seen is lapped riders are pulled prior to the finale (usually they have a sprint a lap early or something), and the break fights among themselves for the victory. Really stupid to allow lapped riders to determine the outcome of a race, imo.
 

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dclee said:
Usual rule I have seen is lapped riders are pulled prior to the finale (usually they have a sprint a lap early or something), and the break fights among themselves for the victory. Really stupid to allow lapped riders to determine the outcome of a race, imo.
In the pro races, this would mean that they'd be pulling a pack of more than 50 riders (at the least). It's common to pull riders who are dropped and deemed "out of contention," but they aren't going to pull the entire pack that's "chasing" the break.
 

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Andrea138 said:
In the pro races, this would mean that they'd be pulling a pack of more than 50 riders (at the least). It's common to pull riders who are dropped and deemed "out of contention," but they aren't going to pull the entire pack that's "chasing" the break.
true, in this case they would have had to pull what 90% of the field?? lol
 

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No one is chasing the break when the break is integrated into the main field and is going into the final lap. I am not talking to about pulling them as soon as the lapping occured, but pulling the field a couple of laps early so that break contests the race among themselves, rather than having the guy in the break with the most lapped teammates determining the outcome.

I have done pro races where they have pulled the field with a lap to go and where they have not. The races where they did not pull the field always end in chaos with lapped riders aiding or hindering those who are a lap up. Not pulling the lap riders basically nullified the work of those riders on weaker teams who drove the break in order to diminish the advantage of the teams with large numbers.

Under USAC rules there is discretion on whether to pull or not per rule 3D7:

3D7. Field finish option. If two or more riders have lapped, or are about to lap, a substantial group of riders, the Chief Referee may direct all lapped riders to sprint early, usually two to four laps before the end of the race, then retire. The decision to do this shall be communicated to the riders several laps in advance of the sprint. No continuing rider may take pace from a rider who has finished [disqualification or
relegation for both riders].
 

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dclee said:
No one is chasing the break when the break is integrated into the main field and is going into the final lap. I am not talking to about pulling them as soon as the lapping occured, but pulling the field a couple of laps early so that break contests the race among themselves, rather than having the guy in the break with the most lapped teammates determining the outcome.

I have done pro races where they have pulled the field with a lap to go and where they have not. The races where they did not pull the field always end in chaos with lapped riders aiding or hindering those who are a lap up. Not pulling the lap riders basically nullified the work of those riders on weaker teams who drove the break in order to diminish the advantage of the teams with large numbers.

Under USAC rules there is discretion on whether to pull or not per rule 3D7:

3D7. Field finish option. If two or more riders have lapped, or are about to lap, a substantial group of riders, the Chief Referee may direct all lapped riders to sprint early, usually two to four laps before the end of the race, then retire. The decision to do this shall be communicated to the riders several laps in advance of the sprint. No continuing rider may take pace from a rider who has finished [disqualification or
relegation for both riders].
Yeah, but considering that the payout is usually at least 30+ deep, you would have a whole lot of pro teams not showing up if only one or two of their guys actually got to compete for the $$.
 

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Andrea138 said:
Yeah, but considering that the payout is usually at least 30+ deep, you would have a whole lot of pro teams not showing up if only one or two of their guys actually got to compete for the $$.
Why would they not get paid out? Only X riders are in the break if (X < Paid spots) then the lapped field will be racing for $$.
 

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Spunout said:
How can a break lap the field, and then the other riders who weren't lapped, help the lappers in the finale?
http://www.usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf
It helps to know the rules.
3D4. Riders on different laps may work with each other
except that no rider may drop back to assist a rider who has
broken away from the field [disqualification for accepting such
assistance].

By the way, the rules cover riders out of contention, not lapped. Anyone still in the money is by definition still in contention.

3D3. The following are alternative methods for handling
lapped riders in criteriums (i.e. riders who have been caught
by the lead rider(s) in the race). The method chosen by the
organizer with the Chief Referee must be clearly explained to
the riders prior to the start of the race.
(a) A rider who falls so far behind as to be considered out of
contention may be removed from the race by the Chief
Referee.
(b) Alternatively, lapped riders may be permitted to remain
in the race and all will finish on the same lap as the leaders.
At the finish, these riders will be placed according to the
number of the laps they are down and then their position in
the finish.
 

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seems like the purse should be split into larger amounts among less riders. I recall at a major crit here in Alabama a month ago, the five big teams each had one rider disappear up the road in the break, and then no one did much else. Once those riders caught the main field and lapped them, the peloton quietly backed down and did not help out the break. The race was decided purely by the 5 or 6 riders in the break.
 

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ashpelham said:
seems like the purse should be split into larger amounts among less riders.
There's a rule for that too.

1F3. Prize list up to $2,000. The number of places that
receive prizes in each event must be at least one for every
$100 in total prize value for the event, up to $2,000.

F4. For each race with over $2,000 in prizes there must
be prizes to at least 20 places and the values for second and
following places must be at least the following fractions of the
first place prize: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, etc. for the first
twenty places. Larger fractions are recommended. (As a
consequence, the first prize may not exceed 27% of the total
prize list for such races.)
 

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Einstruzende said:
It sounds like the winner got a lead out by guys that had been lapped. Is that right? If so, that's super lame. Lame^2.
That's American criterium racing. As a pro team, you deal with it and strategize accordingly. If you watch any pro men's crit, this is how most of the races go.
 

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Andrea138 said:
That's American criterium racing. As a pro team, you deal with it and strategize accordingly. If you watch any pro men's crit, this is how most of the races go.
Absolutely, when the break sees the back of the pack, those who don't see help in the pack sit up. I would think a pro would know the rules. - TF
 

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Andrea138 said:
That's American criterium racing. As a pro team, you deal with it and strategize accordingly. If you watch any pro men's crit, this is how most of the races go.
Exactly.

I don't see what's so lame about it. Everyone plays by the same rule book.

Hammond's Dir Sportif ought to have whispered in his ear what was about to go down when they recombined. Excuses like:

"I don't understand the rules over here"

are lame.
 

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dave2pvd said:
Exactly.

I don't see what's so lame about it. Everyone plays by the same rule book.
And if they had a rule saying you had to take the wheel off and put it on again after each lap it would not be lame just because it was in the rulebook?
The rule is great for the big teams. The small teams get screwed over.
 

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den bakker said:
And if they had a rule saying you had to take the wheel off and put it on again after each lap it would not be lame just because it was in the rulebook?
The rule is great for the big teams. The small teams get screwed over.
Actually, a lone Toyota United rider took 2nd place (everyone else was @ Tulsa Tough). Sure it's favorable to the big teams, but you can definitely be successful by racing smart.
 

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Andrea138 said:
In the pro races, this would mean that they'd be pulling a pack of more than 50 riders (at the least). It's common to pull riders who are dropped and deemed "out of contention," but they aren't going to pull the entire pack that's "chasing" the break.
I watched the BC Provincial Championships in Vancouver this weekend, which had a 10 laps of a 12 km course, then 10 laps of a 2 km course format. An 8 man breakaway (including 5 Symmetrics riders) got a 4 minute lead during the long circuits so once they started the 'criterium', they pulled all of the chasers out of the race, leaving just the 8 riders on the course. (Not surprisingly, Symmetrics placed 1-5).
 

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den bakker said:
And if they had a rule saying you had to take the wheel off and put it on again after each lap it would not be lame just because it was in the rulebook?
The rule is great for the big teams. The small teams get screwed over.
You mean like having to get off the bike a couple times each lap and jump over these 16" planks laying across the course? - TF
 
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