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Without regard to any particular cyclist, although there's bound to be someone always in the forefront of the issue, what do you think of racers who have cheated?

Is it excuseable because "everyone did it" and they more or less "had to"? Is there too much pressure to cheat? Does everyone do it, but only some get caught?

Is a permanent mar on their records and public persona? Is cheating an inherent character flaw that should cause us to lessen our opinions of someone?

Is some cheating ok and others not? Maybe compare drug use with using illegal equipment or cutting the course, for example? How would you compare Racer A who used EPO to gain 2 minutes on a course versus Racer B who cut 1/2 mile off the course?

Does your view on cheating reflect your own propensity to cheat? If you tolerate it, is your view of any competition that anything you can get away with is ok, as long as you don't get caught?

Me, I detest cheaters. Not just the cheating, but the people doing it because they do it. They unlevel the playing field, and discourage others from playing fair, putting pressure on others to break the rules, possibly even endangering their health or lives. They lessen the public opinion of the sport.

Opinions?
 

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aka Zonic Man
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Without regard to any particular cyclist, although there's bound to be someone always in the forefront of the issue, what do you think of racers who have cheated?

--I think it's totally bunk, and it takes away from the sport as a whole. Much like golf, I think there is honor in not cheating.

Is it excuseable because "everyone did it" and they more or less "had to"?

--I think you're the bigger person if you DON'T do it that do it (see catching on to a group to draft when they aren't your category.)

Is there too much pressure to cheat? Does everyone do it, but only some get caught?

--I think there is too much pressure to cheat in Euro Pro cycling, specifically in the Grand Tours. The body was not meant to go that long over multiple days. They should shorten the stages. Not everyone dopes (even drugs that are not "illegal" yet). Note that Mapei never won a grand tour and were at the top of the cycling game for YEARS. They had WC winners, UCI world cup winners, and one day winners, but never a grand tour. Why is that? The Team DS, the team Dr., and the team's owner, were all strictly against drugs.

Is a permanent mar on their records and public persona? Is cheating an inherent character flaw that should cause us to lessen our opinions of someone?

Yes, to me it is. Yes, I think it is, big time. I still hate Virenque.

Is some cheating ok and others not? Maybe compare drug use with using illegal equipment or cutting the course, for example? How would you compare Racer A who used EPO to gain 2 minutes on a course versus Racer B who cut 1/2 mile off the course?

--Sure there are "levels" of cheating. I don't compare drafting off a car to get back up to the gropu after a flat that big of a deal. But doping during a major tour? Big deal.

Just some opinions.
 

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angel of the morning
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I'm with you .....

i think 3 month or 6 month bans are a joke. bans should be lifelong & any cyclist i thought highly of or appreciated i quickly forget & denounce them if they have been found to have cheated.

talent, determination, sacrifice & pure athleticism is what professional cycling should be defined by.

ciao
 

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People who cheat....

..know they are cheating and know the rules that they are breaking.They are completely responsible for their actions. They should also pay the consequences for there actions.I don't believe in any second chances for cheating.It is a selfish and dishonorable thing to do in any circumstance.If you want to cheat and you get caught then understand that there will be punishment for it.
 

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scruffy nerf herder
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What brings this up Mr. Sloan?

Without regard to any particular cyclist, I agree with your views.

It is inherently unfair to those that train their butts off, when a laggard, or at least someone with equal or similar talent and genetics can get a shot and suddenly be able to whack you with no additional effort or sweat equity on their part. Its a sham, but unfortunately a part of seemingly every sport... especially when money is involved as a profession or a gamble.

It is a shame, and unfortunate.

Now, if it happens once... and is pretty much a proven thing and unarguable... (ah-hem Simoni....cocaine laced candies... or your dentist... please..... ) and they fess up to it and then never do it again or never test positive again... I can forgive that. But I think those people should be tested more stringently if they continue to participate at a pro level.

If it happens again, then it is comes down to character and it cheapens the sport. In my mind, two strikes and you are out.

It is just too bad that the cycling organizations have to always play on the defensive, trying to come up with tests for the latest and greatest, so that those that do and have cheated can't continually just use what the ruling organizations cant see.

Its a shame, but exists in everything except for chess and checkers.
 

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that depends what cheating is

It's pretty easy to decide that you're against cheating but it's not as if it's so black and white. The easy example you used, cutting a course, is fairly clear-you know that course layout, but you take a different path. That's cheating. The use of drugs isn't nearly as cut and dried. Most elite athletes use some sort of supplements or substances. If you are using a substance that is legal, or non tested, that provides the same or similair results as a banned substance, are you cheating? Are you a doper? Yes in theory, no in practice. If you win 5 Tours and a decade later, something you used is declared a banned substance, should your wins be taken? should you be banned? If you require a certain drug for treatment of some ailment that also happens to be banned yet you take it anyways, are you a cheater, a doper? It's all way too arbitrary and fluid to have any talk of life long bans and zero tolerance be reasonable. There is no spoon...
 

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Well, this has nothing to do with doping, but the last multi-lap mtb race I did a bunch of people behind me "finished" a lap early--and therefore "ahead" of me. In a sense it was the "fault" of the organizers, cause they didn't do a very good job of tracking where people were in the race. Just goes to show that there are a lot of people who will do something is they think they can get away with it. And this was just a lousy amatuer race. Kind of pathetic, really.
 

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Call me a Fred
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Henry Chinaski said:
Well, this has nothing to do with doping, but the last multi-lap mtb race I did a bunch of people behind me "finished" a lap early--and therefore "ahead" of me. In a sense it was the "fault" of the organizers, cause they didn't do a very good job of tracking where people were in the race. Just goes to show that there are a lot of people who will do something is they think they can get away with it. And this was just a lousy amatuer race. Kind of pathetic, really.
Henry,

Did the racers who 'finished' a lap early know that they had finished a lap early? Quite likely they believed the race to be over and that they had completed all laps. In that case they did not cheat.
 

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MikeBiker said:
Henry,

Did the racers who 'finished' a lap early know that they had finished a lap early? Quite likely they believed the race to be over and that they had completed all laps. In that case they did not cheat.
I figured everyone there knew how to count laps. Maybe they were too tired. Who knows. I was riding Sport and I think there were about eight or ten laps--I got lapped once about 3/4s of the way through by some of the sandbaggers who probably should have been riding Expert. So the finish line was set up for these front runners and I guess a bunch of people decided it was time to call it quits, even though they had another lap or maybe even two to finish. I had a pretty good idea of where everyone was because I started near the rear but it was a very hilly course and I had worked my way up to the top third or quarter of the group by the end of the first lap. A lot of people who I passed and never saw again "finished" ahead of me.
 

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Cheating is cheating. Period (emphasis added). It's a form of robbery against those who followed the rules. There is no excuse for it, there should be no tolerance for it. In a world where everything has turned to mush in terms of personal responsibility and simple right and wrongs (yes, I'm talking to the PC crowd out there), sports should deal harshly with the cheaters. I'm not saying forever banish for an offense, but you sure better suffer the consequences to learn the lesson of not doing it again.
 

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Ahhh... if only life were that simple...

Everyone reading this post loves cycling. Well imagine if you had devoted your childhood to it. You trained as a kid, you worked with a coach, so much so that you sacrificed your education and much of your social life to the sport. Finally, you work you way up through the amateur ranks and into the lower pro ranks. Then POW, you hit a wall. Suddenly, for the first time in you life, you go from being one of the fastest guys in the race to barely hanging on.

It would be tempting enough to start juicing/doping etc... just to stay competitive. If half of the guys you are racing against are known to be using something, then it is easy to rationalize doing it yourself. It is easier still when your DS sends you and everyone else on the team to his doctor who has a trunk load of vials free for the taking. Since the "Festina affair" I doubt this happens much anymore but you get the idea.

I agree that someone who dopes is cheating. I just think that it a very complicated issue and calling racers "cheaters" puts the responsibility of a terribly corrupt system completely on their shoulders.

Personal responsibility is brought up a lot on this topic but what about responsibility to your team, your family, your fans? I don't find the "corrupting the sport" argument very persuasive. Competitors constantly look for an advantage. That's what drives the sport and there will always be old timers around who like the old ways better. You can probably find some old coot who is still bitter about the introduction of the quick release. It doesn't matter, there will always be progress.

Personally, I believe in strict anti-doping regulations for the same reason I believe in the mandatory helmet rule. If you allow people an advantage (whether is doping or not wearing a helmet) that involves risk you compel racers to take risks people should not be compelled to take.

Ill get off my soapbox now

J
 

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angel of the morning
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my opinion - no

undertrained said:
Does Jan Ullrich's out of competition positive test for ecstacy count as cheating?
ive yet to see how any illicit or even medicinal substance could in an anyway enhance an athletes ability. i don't see how substances used recreationally should be tested for or listed as banned substances as this is a seporate issue.

be it speed, coke, cannabis, heroin or whatever else tickles your fancy ... how any of these can enhance an athletes performance? they all disadvantege the body's ability to function at its peak.

all i have left to say on this matter is from the film Withnail & I ..
"apart from personal use, I couldn't care less"

ciao
 

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Cheaters.
The only cheaters that I care about, are cheaters that I race against. There is one guy that I have raced against, that has been caught twice sitting out laps in road races. The first time, I caught him, but he got away with it because I didn't have any other witnesses. The second time, the officials caught him. They didn't tell him. They just listed him in last place. He didn't say a word.
After this last time, I made sure that everybody knew about it. He has become the joke of the peloton.
 

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The Ultimate Betrayal

Sport at it's core is a collaboration of individuals to compete with one another.
I see it as a betrayal of that collaborative effort.
Not much worse than betrayal in my book.

I can't imagine having to live with the demons that haunt cheaters.
I cheated in school playground games as a kid and always paid dearly for it with a crappy feeling inside.
Yuk, no more of that thanks
 

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Interesting. Remeber back in the Olympics when the giant slalom snowboarder lost his gold medal because he tested positive for pot. Certainly he deserved two golds if he was stoned and could win a giant slalom!

It's all been said before: does using three times the reccomended dose of creatine count as doping. How about a coctail of every single legal drug combined? Or what about herbs that have existed for thousands of years but have yet to be tested and "certified" by the impressionable FDA?

Maybe there should be two divisions;
1.) drug/supplement/enhancement-free (purists)
2.) dopers/users/enhancers (tamperers)
 
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