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To quote Captain Renault from Casablanca: "I'm shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on in here!"

The only remarkable thing about the article is that the New York Times is running this story. Doping? At US Postal? I'm shocked! Widespread doping in the pro peloton before Puerto and the UCI biological passport? NFW!!!
 

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The article should really read.....
Tax payers shocked at the cost federal prosecutors are willing to pay to confirm a American cyclist used PEDs to beat European cyclists in a European sporting event.
One anonymous source states "we have nothing better to do with our hard earned and payed taxes then chase a sporting cheat who at least felt guilty enough to start a cancer foundation"
another source states "WTF are we doing. Our countrymen are dying in other lands, our schools system is falling apart, our coast lands are sludgy, we need to do research on hydrogen cars, the line to get tax payer funds is long and Jeff "DBag" Nysleshitz should be at the back of the line!"
 

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SicBith said:
The article should really read.....
Tax payers shocked at the cost federal prosecutors are willing to pay to confirm a American cyclist used PEDs to beat European cyclists in a European sporting event.
One anonymous source states "we have nothing better to do with our hard earned and payed taxes then chase a sporting cheat who at least felt guilty enough to start a cancer foundation"
another source states "WTF are we doing. Our countrymen are dying in other lands, our schools system is falling apart, our coast lands are sludgy, we need to do research on hydrogen cars, the line to get tax payer funds is long and Jeff "DBag" Nysleshitz should be at the back of the line!"
More like the family structure has fallen apart. Teachers are more highly trained today than ever, yet test scores drop. I highly doubt the schools are to blame. Somehow MAGICALLY, public schools in wealthy neighborhoods still produce very high test scores. I went to a wealthy public high school. The teachers were mediocre at best, yet our test scores were through the roof. Answer: More parent "support".

As far as the article goes, I agree with the rest of what you said. :p

I am on board with this statement from the article 100%:

“If Lance Armstrong came in second in those Tour de France races, there’s no way that Lance Armstrong would be involved in these cases,” Daly said. “I think that the concern is that they are caught up in the pursuit of a celebrity to catch him in a lie.”

Like I have mentioned before, really it boils down to "who gets caught" vs. "who slips through the cracks". What is silly is that most likely any rider pointing their dirty finger at Lance has been doped to the gills at one time or another, yet failed to podium.............so nobody seems to care. Ridiculous!

They should attack the "system", not Lance alone. BTW, yes I do believe that Lance was doped....along with everyone else in the top 20...perhaps even the guys at the back of the peloton. Even surviving the TdF in the back of the peleton is absolutely amazing, so I don't doubt that there is doping going on back there too.
 

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rydbyk said:
“If Lance Armstrong came in second in those Tour de France races, there’s no way that Lance Armstrong would be involved in these cases,” Daly said. “I think that the concern is that they are caught up in the pursuit of a celebrity to catch him in a lie.”
This quote from LA's attorney, Bryan D. Daly, is hilarious in its utter ignorance. Umm, how many times did Jan Ullrich come in 2nd to LA? Did he not have his career ended prematurely due to the investigation of his involvement in Operation Puerto? Looks like "they" go after the 2nd placed dopers too. So I think Mr. Daly's contention is daft and ill-informed in the least. Its always the same defense with LA - "they" (the French, the media, former teammates, Lemond, you name it) are "out to get him". Ridiculous....
 

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otiebob said:
This quote from LA's attorney, Bryan D. Daly, is hilarious in its utter ignorance. Umm, how many times did Jan Ullrich come in 2nd to LA? Did he not have his career ended prematurely due to the investigation of his involvement in Operation Puerto? Looks like "they" go after the 2nd placed dopers too. So I think Mr. Daly's contention is daft and ill-informed in the least. Its always the same defense with LA - "they" (the French, the media, former teammates, Lemond, you name it) are "out to get him". Ridiculous....

I agree that IF Lance happened to fall under the umbrella of the Puerto investigation, he would still have issues today. LA was not part of that and Jan happened to be. Even if Jan finished 12th, he would have still been accused and suspended.

This case with LA is about "figuring out how he won 7 TdFs". That is all. The investigators are building their resumes with the potential of busting an American Icon. Again, I do believe that LA doped, but the approach is sickening in their determination to target him when they know darn well that nearly every top contender is doped to the gills......argh!

They pitch this witch hunt as an "attempt to make things right for all those poor poor clean riders out there suffering away without access to/use of PEDs." Come on.......really???

Why do you think the same attention is not placed on Hincapie, Levi, Dave Z. etc....? Odds are, they will offer guys like this "deals" in order to bring down LA. Answer: They did not win the TdF 7 times and they would not garner the attention of the publicity seeking attorneys. Having your name attached with taking down an American Icon in the world of mega-ego attorneys is absolute GOLD!

The people involved in this are foaming at the mouth with excitement right now! Trust me.
 

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The fun of this is in the speculation on who is "unnamed". Kev Livingston? Marty Jemison? (he seemed to part ways pretty bitterly and I woulndn't be too surprised.) I'm leaning away from Vaughters.

I don't imagine any of the Euro riders really co-operating with this, only the US riders.
 

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mmoose said:
The fun of this is in the speculation on who is "unnamed". Kev Livingston? Marty Jemison? (he seemed to part ways pretty bitterly and I woulndn't be too surprised.) I'm leaning away from Vaughters.

I don't imagine any of the Euro riders really co-operating with this, only the US riders.

Was DZ on the Postal team at this time? He's the one I was thinking would sing. Vaughters too.

I don't remember the 'this is a witch hunt' comments from when Ullrich was being accused.

I've wanted to see Lance fall for years. The arrogance of continuing to deny and the repeated claims of being clean while Tyler and Floyd twisted in the wind were ridiculous. If Lance gives Floyd a job 2 years ago, this never happens. All of these guys who got popped are screwed. What would it have cost a multi-millionaire to give a gig to Tyler on the LAF or a domestic-only role on RS to Floyd? Probably NOT his reputation. That seems to be what this may cost Lance in the future. Small price to pay IMO.
 

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3rensho said:
W.... and the repeated claims of being clean ...
I don't think Lance ever claimed that he was riding "clean".
He did say that he "never tested positive" and that he was the "most tested" athlete.
Besides that, I would like to see LA brought down a few notches, not because of the doping, but because of bringing the worst of the politics into the ranks (hint: Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeoni).
 

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Mmmmm..

3rensho said:
Was DZ on the Postal team at this time? He's the one I was thinking would sing. Vaughters too.

I don't remember the 'this is a witch hunt' comments from when Ullrich was being accused.

I've wanted to see Lance fall for years. The arrogance of continuing to deny and the repeated claims of being clean while Tyler and Floyd twisted in the wind were ridiculous. If Lance gives Floyd a job 2 years ago, this never happens. All of these guys who got popped are screwed. What would it have cost a multi-millionaire to give a gig to Tyler on the LAF or a domestic-only role on RS to Floyd? Probably NOT his reputation. That seems to be what this may cost Lance in the future. Small price to pay IMO.

They ALL dope. They ALL do everything possible not to get caught. They ALL deny doping. Of course they are going to deny it. Do you think that Lance is going to just suddenly randomly admit to doping when he KNOWS that nearly every top contender is doped too and not being bothered yet. Doping is simply part of the sport. It is what you sign up for when you aspire to ride/be competitive in the TdF and other classics etc. By saying that you have wanted to see "Lance fall for years" would sort of imply that you would like to see all top contenders and possibly those at the back of the peloton fall also.

Lance has done a ton to bring the ambiguous sport of cycling more towards the mainstream here in the USA. This arrogant behavior is most likely what lead to him being such a bad ass even at the age of 15. You have TWO choices when you are REPEATEDLY questioned about using PEDs.... 1. Passively deny it. 2. Arrogantly deny it. Which one is more convincing? I would say that arrogantly denying it makes more people believe Lance and ANYONE hoping to convince the public that they are "clean".

Lets face it. He is a doper and so is nearly everyone else at this level. I hate to keep repeating myself, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, who is to say that the riders at the back of the peloton are not doped to the gills also and would not be able to complete the TdF without PEDs? Just finishing the TdF is truly amazing....don't forget that.

I am starting to think that IF Lance had not been so fanatical about his training and genetically gifted with the heart of a lion (all of which are legal last time I checked) that he would not be in this situation today. He would not have won so many times and therefore nobody would care enough to "see him fall". Just using PEDs does NOT lead to a TdF victory. It is FAR from being that simple.

It has got to piss Lance off knowing that just because other dopers have not worked as hard as him etc etc etc that nobody cares to see THEM fall. Again, he KNOWS that all top contenders are dopers too.
 

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twiggy said:
No way. It's a no-name cyclist and this is a carefully orchestrated (and very transparent) leak.

From the NY Times story:
A former teammate of Armstrong said in a telephone interview Wednesday that he had spoken with investigators. He said he detailed some of his own drug use, as well as the widespread cheating that he said went on as part of the Postal Service team — all of which he said was done with Armstrong’s knowledge and encouragement.

The rider, who has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs or methods, asked that his name not be used because investigators advised him not to speak publicly about the information he provided. He has not been called before the grand jury that has been convened in Los Angeles to investigate the case.​

Not on the list of cyclists named to be called before the grand jury but the NY Times just happened to track him down? Hahahahahaha.
 

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jorgy said:
No way. It's a no-name cyclist and this is a carefully orchestrated (and very transparent) leak.

From the NY Times story:
A former teammate of Armstrong said in a telephone interview Wednesday that he had spoken with investigators. He said he detailed some of his own drug use, as well as the widespread cheating that he said went on as part of the Postal Service team — all of which he said was done with Armstrong’s knowledge and encouragement.

The rider, who has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs or methods, asked that his name not be used because investigators advised him not to speak publicly about the information he provided. He has not been called before the grand jury that has been convened in Los Angeles to investigate the case.​

Not on the list of cyclists named to be called before the grand jury but the NY Times just happened to track him down? Hahahahahaha.
It is not transparent.

People are stupid.

If slander was transparent, the backfiring would outweigh the benefits.

+2 on the orchestrated part.
 

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mmoose said:
The fun of this is in the speculation on who is "unnamed". Kev Livingston? Marty Jemison? (he seemed to part ways pretty bitterly and I woulndn't be too surprised.) I'm leaning away from Vaughters.

I don't imagine any of the Euro riders really co-operating with this, only the US riders.
My guess is Michael Barry. He has written articles for the NY Times so he would have contacts there that would probably honor his request to remain anonymos.
 

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rydbyk said:
They ALL dope. They ALL do everything possible not to get caught. They ALL deny doping. Of course they are going to deny it. Do you think that Lance is going to just suddenly randomly admit to doping when he KNOWS that nearly every top contender is doped too and not being bothered yet. Doping is simply part of the sport. It is what you sign up for when you aspire to ride/be competitive in the TdF and other classics etc. By saying that you have wanted to see "Lance fall for years" would sort of imply that you would like to see all top contenders and possibly those at the back of the peloton fall also.

Lance has done a ton to bring the ambiguous sport of cycling more towards the mainstream here in the USA. This arrogant behavior is most likely what lead to him being such a bad ass even at the age of 15. You have TWO choices when you are REPEATEDLY questioned about using PEDs.... 1. Passively deny it. 2. Arrogantly deny it. Which one is more convincing? I would say that arrogantly denying it makes more people believe Lance and ANYONE hoping to convince the public that they are "clean".

Lets face it. He is a doper and so is nearly everyone else at this level. I hate to keep repeating myself, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, who is to say that the riders at the back of the peloton are not doped to the gills also and would not be able to complete the TdF without PEDs? Just finishing the TdF is truly amazing....don't forget that.

I am starting to think that IF Lance had not been so fanatical about his training and genetically gifted with the heart of a lion (all of which are legal last time I checked) that he would not be in this situation today. He would not have won so many times and therefore nobody would care enough to "see him fall". Just using PEDs does NOT lead to a TdF victory. It is FAR from being that simple.

It has got to piss Lance off know that just because other dopers have not worked as hard as him etc etc etc that nobody cares to see THEM fall. Again, he KNOWS that all top contenders are dopers too.
I can argue your point that 'they all dope' but I doubt it would do any good. And yes, I'd like to see all of the dopers in the pro cycling fall. It makes me sad that doping has become so prevalent in all sports. I've followed and participated in bike racing for the majority of my life and it saddens me to see people who don't play by the rules get ahead. Is that the whole pro peloton? I don't think it is.
It seems that many of the people who are larger fans of Lance than our sport have now reverted to a stance that "well, they ALL doped and so Lance won fair and square". That's BS. It shows that those people are more interested in justifying their hero's actions than having a clean and fair sport for future generations of racers. This justification in the form of "well, Lance is just SUCH a competitor, of course he'd do what it took to stay on point with the rest of the best racers" is also crap. No one should get a pass.

It's pretty clear that you are a huge fan. (Heart of a lion? really?) I respect that you probably started loving the sport because of watching LA at the Tour. Cool, we need more people like you. But, please don't tell me that Lance gets a special dispensation from blame because of his 'heart' or that 'everybody does it'. Lastly, the pro season goes from approx. Feb through Oct. each year. Finishing ANY of those races is a pretty big feat......don't forget that.
 

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3rensho said:
I can argue your point that 'they all dope' but I doubt it would do any good. And yes, I'd like to see all of the dopers in the pro cycling fall. It makes me sad that doping has become so prevalent in all sports. I've followed and participated in bike racing for the majority of my life and it saddens me to see people who don't play by the rules get ahead. Is that the whole pro peloton? I don't think it is.
It seems that many of the people who are larger fans of Lance than our sport have now reverted to a stance that "well, they ALL doped and so Lance won fair and square". That's BS. It shows that those people are more interested in justifying their hero's actions than having a clean and fair sport for future generations of racers. This justification in the form of "well, Lance is just SUCH a competitor, of course he'd do what it took to stay on point with the rest of the best racers" is also crap. No one should get a pass.

It's pretty clear that you are a huge fan. (Heart of a lion? really?) I respect that you probably started loving the sport because of watching LA at the Tour. Cool, we need more people like you. But, please don't tell me that Lance gets a special dispensation from blame because of his 'heart' or that 'everybody does it'. Lastly, the pro season goes from approx. Feb through Oct. each year. Finishing ANY of those races is a pretty big feat......don't forget that.

LOL...seriously. That is a pretty big leap wouldn't you say? I have not missed a TdF in 26 years amigo. Watched it live in France too... I am fully aware of the "other" races too believe it or not..ha. And yes..I would say that anyone who went thru the cancer treatments/surgeries that he went thru with little complaints has the heart of a lion. I am guessing that you are an expert in this too perhaps??

I would speak the same way about ANYONE is LA's shoes dealing with what clearly is a witch hunt. Look...he is a doper. I am not a "huge fan" as you say. I just don't think it is fair to torpedo him simply because he is more successful than all the other dopers.

Again, attack the system, not the victor.

Also, lots of us measly RBR members have "participated in bike racing" for the majority of our lives. That does not mean crapola...but thanks for sharing your credentials.
 

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Mootsie said:
My guess is Michael Barry. He has written articles for the NY Times so he would have contacts there that would probably honor his request to remain anonymos.
Good point about Michael Barry. Didn't even think of his participation with Postal or his writing background. That makes a lot of sense.

I guess there's a few 'unwritten chapters' of ON THE POSTAL BUS that need to be examined.
 

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1) Why would it be Berry when he was one of the people named by Landis? Would they not call someone named in front of the Grand Jury?

2) Ullrich was investigated because his name came up in Puerto they never went after him before that or even since. Totally different from LA.

3) I've said it before, this is just like the baseball hearings, all about making a name by getting big fish rather then actually stopping PED use.
 

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rydbyk said:
LOL...seriously. That is a pretty big leap wouldn't you say? I have not missed a TdF in 26 years amigo. Watched it live in France too... And yes..I would say that anyone who went thru the cancer treatments/surgeries that he went thru with little complaints has the heart of a lion. I am guessing that you are an expert in this too perhaps??
Oooh, a cred-off! I'll stand by my statement. If you have followed the last 26 Tours and DIDN'T think anything was strange about LA's domination other than his obviously superior heart and genes and work ethic, I guess we'll have to go down separate roads.

Tell me, when you were there for Lance's chemo sessions, what did he talk about instead of complaining?
 

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MG537 said:
I don't think Lance ever claimed that he was riding "clean".
He did at least once, of which I'm aware. It was during a television interview; I cannot recall the show or who was asking the question, but I am virtually certain it was one of the Big Three networks. He was asked point-blank if he had ever used performance-enhancing drugs at any time during his cycling career (paraphrasing). He answered that he had never used performance-enhancing drugs (again, paraphrasing).

I did not find his answer wholly convincing, which is why the "paraphrasing" disclaimer is important. I thought, and a friend did too, that he carefully worded his answer such that he denied using PEDs after he came back from cancer but left himself some wiggle room for his pre-cancer days.
 
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