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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would like to hear peoples experience of the perceptable aero advantage of riding a deep section clincher wheel as opposed to a standard rim wheel. Recently spoke to a dealer who reccomended the Rolf Vigor (34mm rim) as opposed to lashing out on Zipp 404 clincher(41mm) (which he also sells!). What he did say having ridden the Vigors for 3 seasons was that he suspected the aero advantage in the them were due to 1. hidden spoke ends 2. low spoke count and 3. the fact that Rolf pairs them very close together all add up to the same aero performance as deeper sectioned rims such as the Zipp 404. Am seeking the aero advantage for flat ride racing (not time trial) only.

Really appreciate your feedback.
 

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henry said:
I would like to hear peoples experience of the perceptable aero advantage of riding a deep section clincher wheel as opposed to a standard rim wheel. Recently spoke to a dealer who reccomended the Rolf Vigor (34mm rim) as opposed to lashing out on Zipp 404 clincher(41mm) (which he also sells!). What he did say having ridden the Vigors for 3 seasons was that he suspected the aero advantage in the them were due to 1. hidden spoke ends 2. low spoke count and 3. the fact that Rolf pairs them very close together all add up to the same aero performance as deeper sectioned rims such as the Zipp 404. Am seeking the aero advantage for flat ride racing (not time trial) only.

Really appreciate your feedback.
The reasons he stated for the Rolfs being more aero are right out of the Rolf marketing book. There is no doubt that the wheels have good aerodynamic properties, but the majority of that is due to the rims. They are nice wheels and offer aerodynamics in the same league as the 404 (for us mortals). A good buy.

-Eric
 

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The Rolf rims are the same as AC420s. The Zipp 404 are 58mm deep, not 41mm... and they are probably the most aero rim you can buy at that depth. Look here for Tours aero wheel test... The Ritcheys use old 404 rims:
http://zipp.com/

Maybe you were thinking of the 303s? Also a good rim, but get the beefed up model...

Paired spokes (like Rolfs) actually increase aero drag very slightly... it isn't a benefit.

If you want an aluminum clincher and would like to save some money, then have a good builder put together some wheels with a 30mm rim, and CX-ray spokes (or even AE15s to save even more)... for aero, they will be about the same as the Rolfs... and could be a *lot* cheaper.
 

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ergott said:
The reasons he stated for the Rolfs being more aero are right out of the Rolf marketing book. There is no doubt that the wheels have good aerodynamic properties, but the majority of that is due to the rims. They are nice wheels and offer aerodynamics in the same league as the 404 (for us mortals). A good buy.

-Eric
right, the majority of aero effects are in rim depth and profile. spoke count is secondary. I think there was some data showing paired spokes were worse than regular. as to hidden nipples, Zipp claims it doesn't matter on their rims, which have concave sidewalls that make their apparent depth more than their real depth. or something like that. and the Zipp 404 clincher would be 58mm. the 303s are now 44mm (2005 and earlier were 38mm).
 

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Slighter detour, here, sort of related to deep rims.....

Ergott or Ligero: why is it that Reynolds uses Laser spokes as opposed to CX-Rays on their Stratus DV rims? Can Reynolds rims be bought for builds?
 

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alienator said:
Slighter detour, here, sort of related to deep rims.....

Ergott or Ligero: why is it that Reynolds uses Laser spokes as opposed to CX-Rays on their Stratus DV rims? Can Reynolds rims be bought for builds?
Why? I honestly don't know. I wonder if the choice is wind tunnel tested or just to keep the cost of the wheels down. Even at wholesale, CX-Rays and Aerolites are expensive.

As far as I'm aware, they do not sell their rims for builds. It would be nice to have the option if they did.

-Eric
 

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alienator said:
Slighter detour, here, sort of related to deep rims.....

Ergott or Ligero: why is it that Reynolds uses Laser spokes as opposed to CX-Rays on their Stratus DV rims? Can Reynolds rims be bought for builds?
I have tried and tried and tried and did I say I had tried to get Reynolds to sell me rims! There answer is always that they are discussing it and that I am one of the top guys on the list when they do make them available. Th reason they use lasers instead of cx-rays is because Lew and Nimble have done tests that have shown that very skinny round spokes were over all more aero then bladed spokes. The tests took into account side on aerodynamics as well as head on. The bladed spokes were more aero head on but as the wind moves to the side the advantage quickly went to the skinny round spokes. The last reason that they use them is because they are much, much cheaper and they make more money on the wheels.
 

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Ligero said:
I have tried and tried and tried and did I say I had tried to get Reynolds to sell me rims! There answer is always that they are discussing it and that I am one of the top guys on the list when they do make them available. Th reason they use lasers instead of cx-rays is because Lew and Nimble have done tests that have shown that very skinny round spokes were over all more aero then bladed spokes. The tests took into account side on aerodynamics as well as head on. The bladed spokes were more aero head on but as the wind moves to the side the advantage quickly went to the skinny round spokes. The last reason that they use them is because they are much, much cheaper and they make more money on the wheels.
That's too bad. You should try to get Reynolds to sell you their rims. Have you ever tried that?

The aero bit makes sense.
 

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Ligero said:
Th reason they use lasers instead of cx-rays is because Lew and Nimble have done tests that have shown that very skinny round spokes were over all more aero then bladed spokes.
Doesn't make sense based on the data I've seen. CX-rays seem to be a lot better at all angles, and even fat blades are better than round. Have Nimble and Lew ever published their data?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
rruff said:
Doesn't make sense based on the data I've seen. CX-rays seem to be a lot better at all angles, and even fat blades are better than round. Have Nimble and Lew ever published their data?
My initial request seems to have triggered the usual sidetracking (!) which is imformative but was wondering if any of you can give direct comment on my original question about comparison between standard box rim performance compared to deep profile(over 40mm)....
 

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Perceptability of aerowheel speeddifferences

henry said:
I would like to hear peoples experience of the perceptable aero advantage of riding a deep section clincher wheel as opposed to a standard rim wheel.
It depends on what you mean as "perceptable". Studies show that the very best aerowheels can increase speed by about 0.5 mph compared to shallow box section wheels (at a nominal 25mph). At lower speeds, and with less than maximal aerowheels, speed increases would be less. Since I ride on rolling terrain, and my speed is constantly going up and down, I'm not sure that a fraction of an MPH speed increase at any given moment would be perceptable.

At the end of 10 mile time trial, I can see a fraction of minute time reduction when I ride my 42mm deep Shamals vs. my 18mm deep Open Pros. But as far as feeling an instantaneous difference in speed when actually riding, not so much.
 

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some difference

I feel faster when I use my X-Lite Aeros over my regular X-Lites but I doubt there is really much of a difference. When you get to a 404 you may be able to actually feel the advantage. I would buy the 404s. Paired spoke wheels are a pain to true.
 

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henry said:
My initial request seems to have triggered the usual sidetracking (!) which is imformative but was wondering if any of you can give direct comment on my original question about comparison between standard box rim performance compared to deep profile(over 40mm)....
Did you check Zipp's website? Also see this thread:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=550582#poststop
 
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