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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What a valiant and tenacious display of road racing bravado for team Discovery! I salute your passionate racing, even after loosing one of your own favorites to win, you maintained your determination and courage, and not even a speeding Euro train could intimidate you, even if it cost you a disqualification on the second and fourth places. I believe that professional road racers like you are what makes this sports of cycling so intensely gratifying to watch and participate! Bravo to you and your coach! Bravo!
 

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Huh?

ru1-2cycle said:
What a valiant and tenacious display of road racing bravado for team Discovery! I salute your passionate racing, even after loosing one of your own favorites to win, you maintained your determination and courage, and not even a speeding Euro train could intimidate you, even if it cost you a disqualification on the second and fourth places. I believe that professional road racers like you are what makes this sports of cycling so intensely gratifying to watch and participate! Bravo to you and your coach! Bravo!
Is this because they lost? Again? How about... Bravo to Fabian Cancellara for riding the race of his life and taking a solo victory after shedding his Disco breakaway companion? That's more like it right there.
 

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Disco at P-R

I have to say, I'm not as impressed with the team tactics.
The indivuduals performed well. Hoste & Gusev made hard efforts at Arenberg and then later to shake Boonen off.
But I do wonder. If it were Boonen, Pozzato & Nuyens in a group with Hincapie, and
Boonen goes down, would Pozzato & Nuyens slow, stop, go back?
Would we expect them to? Could the 2 Disco riders tell immediately that George couldn't continue?
Perhaps George was the "leader" (unless anything bad happens).
You know that if Armstrong hits the deck at the Tour, everybody is going back for him.
 

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They rode well...

Tomwd3 said:
I have to say, I'm not as impressed with the team tactics.
The indivuduals performed well. Hoste & Gusev made hard efforts at Arenberg and then later to shake Boonen off.
But I do wonder. If it were Boonen, Pozzato & Nuyens in a group with Hincapie, and
Boonen goes down, would Pozzato & Nuyens slow, stop, go back?
Would we expect them to? Could the 2 Disco riders tell immediately that George couldn't continue?
Perhaps George was the "leader" (unless anything bad happens).
You know that if Armstrong hits the deck at the Tour, everybody is going back for him.
They rode well, but they had 3 people in the final selection, and really failed to capitalize on it. In a one day race, especially that close to the finish, even if your team leader falls, it's time to move onward and keep hammering. If something like that had happened earlier in the race, of course, they would have paced Hincapie back to the group. Since it happened late, and happened during a critical time, if they had waited for Hincapie, and if he had climbed back on and was able to ride, all 3 would have been out of the race at that point in time. The poop was going down, no time to wait and stop. I guarantee you, in a situation like that, if it was as you described with Boonen, Nuyens, and Pozzatto there, Boonen goes down, the other 2 continue onward just like the 2 Disco riders did.

Armstrong hitting the deck at the Tour is a much different scenario, because GTs are not won in one day, they're won over 21 days of racing, and any lost time is critical for the overall win. Classics are just that. One day, and it's done with.
 

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Tomwd3 said:
I have to say, I'm not as impressed with the team tactics.
The indivuduals performed well. Hoste & Gusev made hard efforts at Arenberg and then later to shake Boonen off.
But I do wonder. If it were Boonen, Pozzato & Nuyens in a group with Hincapie, and
Boonen goes down, would Pozzato & Nuyens slow, stop, go back?
Would we expect them to? Could the 2 Disco riders tell immediately that George couldn't continue?
Perhaps George was the "leader" (unless anything bad happens).
You know that if Armstrong hits the deck at the Tour, everybody is going back for him.

Like when Boonen left his crashed team leader Hincapie behind a few years ago?

Like what magnolialover said... not in that situation.
 

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Not "great" tactics

I can't tell if the original post was sarcastic or not. Hoste & Gusev should have waited on the train. I'd be interested to hear what the teams instructions were to Hoste as he pulled up to the train tracks. Boonen may have still sprinted for 2nd, but with 2 Disco guys and everyone else working against him, it would have been tough.

Now, excuse me while I head to my LBS to buy me a nice Trek fork...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Orders.

Maybe they were told to keep the race on by their coach, eh?George fell down too hard on the unforgiving granite, too hurt for a quick recovery. It was a smart tactic to continue, but the Euro train...
Tomwd3 said:
I have to say, I'm not as impressed with the team tactics.
The indivuduals performed well. Hoste & Gusev made hard efforts at Arenberg and then later to shake Boonen off.
But I do wonder. If it were Boonen, Pozzato & Nuyens in a group with Hincapie, and
Boonen goes down, would Pozzato & Nuyens slow, stop, go back?
Would we expect them to? Could the 2 Disco riders tell immediately that George couldn't continue?
Perhaps George was the "leader" (unless anything bad happens).
You know that if Armstrong hits the deck at the Tour, everybody is going back for him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Lbs

Hey, don't forget to ask for the GH handlebar/headset special...
grampy bone said:
I can't tell if the original post was sarcastic or not. Hoste & Gusev should have waited on the train. I'd be interested to hear what the teams instructions were to Hoste as he pulled up to the train tracks. Boonen may have still sprinted for 2nd, but with 2 Disco guys and everyone else working against him, it would have been tough.

Now, excuse me while I head to my LBS to buy me a nice Trek fork...
 

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Disco P-R

Well, it seems that most folks think that the one day race scenario doesn't allow for much
back-tracking to help out a teammate.
I was curious as to what people thought.
I understand that the Grand Tours are different, and the multi-day GC means limiting time losses & not necessarily crossing the line first.
However, if it was my call, I'd have had Gusev stop.
It was 45K to go and hey, ya never know, they could get stuck at a train crossing!!!
 

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It was...

Tomwd3 said:
Well, it seems that most folks think that the one day race scenario doesn't allow for much
back-tracking to help out a teammate.
I was curious as to what people thought.
I understand that the Grand Tours are different, and the multi-day GC means limiting time losses & not necessarily crossing the line first.
However, if it was my call, I'd have had Gusev stop.
It was 45K to go and hey, ya never know, they could get stuck at a train crossing!!!
It was actually around 30k to go when Hincapie went down, and if someone doesn't get straight back up in a race like PR, then there is a good chance they aren't getting back on. No need to take your numbers down from 3 to 2 to 1 rider if you can't help the person who fell. If Gusev had gone back, they would have diminished their number in the selection to just 1 rider, and would have left Hoste isolated. That would have been bad, very bad. I'm also pretty certain that Demol and Johan were watching the group on the TV in the car, and saw immediately that George was hurt, and told their riders to keep going. Head down boys, head down, George is hurt. Something like that.
 

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magnolialover said:
It was actually around 30k to go when Hincapie went down, and if someone doesn't get straight back up in a race like PR, then there is a good chance they aren't getting back on. No need to take your numbers down from 3 to 2 to 1 rider if you can't help the person who fell. If Gusev had gone back, they would have diminished their number in the selection to just 1 rider, and would have left Hoste isolated. That would have been bad, very bad. I'm also pretty certain that Demol and Johan were watching the group on the TV in the car, and saw immediately that George was hurt, and told their riders to keep going. Head down boys, head down, George is hurt. Something like that.
I think they even did hesitate a bit as they were behind the Boonen/Cancellera group that came of that section of pave first as next to Cancellera and possibly even equal to him Hoste was the strongest and probably could have followed them. Hincapie would have to have been super to have gotten on another bike and caught back up. It didn't look like the Disco car was with Hincapie for some time. Once he crashed he was done for no matter what Hoste/Gusev did.
 

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Tomwd3 said:
I have to say, I'm not as impressed with the team tactics.
The indivuduals performed well. Hoste & Gusev made hard efforts at Arenberg and then later to shake Boonen off.
But I do wonder. If it were Boonen, Pozzato & Nuyens in a group with Hincapie, and
Boonen goes down, would Pozzato & Nuyens slow, stop, go back?
Would we expect them to? Could the 2 Disco riders tell immediately that George couldn't continue?
Perhaps George was the "leader" (unless anything bad happens).
You know that if Armstrong hits the deck at the Tour, everybody is going back for him.
I'm sure that there were discussions on the Discovery team bus before the race about what would happen if Hincapie went down. Once the selection was made after Arenberg, the orders were clear: they go to their second option, Hoste, who clearly was on at least equal form to Hincapie. It's up to Hincapie to get back on his own, if he can. If Hoste had been the one to go down, it's the same thing. Hincapie doesn't wait. Those are the tactics a team <u>has</u> to play if they want to win the race. After all, at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Hoste or Hincapie wins the race, as long as one of them does. Those are TEAM tactics.

The Tour isn't a one day race, so of course they go back for Armstrong. He might lose some time, but there's always tomorrow. At Paris-Roubaix, waiting for Hincapie does nothing for your team except guarantee you won't win the race. There is no tomorrow at P-R.
 

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No Tomorrow

and 2 guys in the final 7 or so is tactically superior. had Cancellara not been able to drop Gusev, they would have been in a position to win. But Gusev cracked and since Hoste was playing 'defense' there (like GH was in RVV, except Gusev wasn't working like Hoste)
Fabian had the gap he needed. Lucklily they got to 2 v1 against PVP for 2nd.

But Gusev's behavior on Fabian's wheel was correct (but he couldn't hold) tactics and all it did was point out the tactical failure of having Hoste work with Boonen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Indeed...

No mercy either.Unforgiving.Vicious. Toughest one day race.
mohair_chair said:
I'm sure that there were discussions on the Discovery team bus before the race about what would happen if Hincapie went down. Once the selection was made after Arenberg, the orders were clear: they go to their second option, Hoste, who clearly was on at least equal form to Hincapie. It's up to Hincapie to get back on his own, if he can. If Hoste had been the one to go down, it's the same thing. Hincapie doesn't wait. Those are the tactics a team <u>has</u> to play if they want to win the race. After all, at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Hoste or Hincapie wins the race, as long as one of them does. Those are TEAM tactics.

The Tour isn't a one day race, so of course they go back for Armstrong. He might lose some time, but there's always tomorrow. At Paris-Roubaix, waiting for Hincapie does nothing for your team except guarantee you won't win the race. There is no tomorrow at P-R.
 

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The correct tactics

Of course Hoste and Gusev had to proceed, at that point.
Discovery had a numerical advantage, they had Boonen on the ropes, and time was running out.

In the Worlds (or many other major multi-lap races), you'll notice there are always 2 substitute bikes up front and ready in the team boxes.
These two bikes are those of the first and second leaders.
If a leader goes down or is not on form (like Bettini at the Worlds in Verona, 2004) another bike is immediately subsituted, signalling the 2 new leaders. Move on.

Hincapie didn't simply flat with a team car at the bend or go down with 200km to go.
Hincapie goes down, that hard, with 30 km left, no doubt about it: move it along at that point.
There is no time to waste on "what-if" scenarios.
 

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I think it was correct for Hoste and Gustev to keep riding after GH went down. If GH had hopped up right away and kept riding it would have been easy at any point to drop Gustev back to help him, but he GH wasn't going anywhere. And if GH jumped up and Gustev dropped back, then that dolt Hoste would have probably gone straight to the front and worked, to make it as hard as possible for his teammates to bridge.

What an idiot! What could Hoste have been thinking when he went to the front and worked while Gustev dangled just meters off the back of the breakaway? Then he started waving his arms, before moving to the front and working again. No wonder Gustev couldn't hold Cancelaras wheel!
 
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