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I had a thought today and wonder what some of you think. In the past couple of years, Beltran, Heras, Landis, and other members from the Postal and Discovery teams were either caught or admitted they doped.

Some, if not all of them helped Armstrong in crucial mountain stages, Could he have fared worse if he didn't have these guys or would it have had little effect on his efforts in the mountains? I remember in one of the mountain stages he told Heras to slow down as he (Lance) was having trouble keeping on his wheel.

Does this taint Armstrong's achievments in your opinion? I realize he won some of them by a lot, but could some of the close Tours cost him the win without them?

Also, do you think Lance or suspected suspected they doped?
 

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Doping Forum, please!!
 

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dasho said:
I had a thought today and wonder what some of you think. In the past couple of years, Beltran, Heras, Landis, and other members from the Postal and Discovery teams were either caught or admitted they doped.

Some, if not all of them helped Armstrong in crucial mountain stages, Could he have fared worse if he didn't have these guys or would it have had little effect on his efforts in the mountains? I remember in one of the mountain stages he told Heras to slow down as he (Lance) was having trouble keeping on his wheel.

Does this taint Armstrong's achievments in your opinion? I realize he won some of them by a lot, but could some of the close Tours cost him the win without them?

Also, do you think Lance or suspected suspected they doped?
Don't for get Landis.

This thread is so headed to the doping forum.

It's all be discussed here b4.

Don't forget Frankie Andreau admitting to it.
 

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yes

and by that logic I hope NONE of you ever have any former frineds/associates who break laws for I will blame YOU as the cause

see how silly it sounds when you just make it neutral/personal?
 

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atpjunkie said:
and by that logic I hope NONE of you ever have any former frineds/associates who break laws for I will blame YOU as the cause

see how silly it sounds when you just make it neutral/personal?

ummm.... IMO it doesn't sound silly. I don't have any friends/associates who have broken the law as related to their line of work. Supposed that I did though, and I worked in a small company, and repeatedly had multiple co-workers being caught for illegal things directly related to the work that the company does, then YES it would make me look suspicious.

I am not really commenting on the LA part, just a bad example you used.
 

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Wrong

Kestreljr said:
ummm.... IMO it doesn't sound silly. I don't have any friends/associates who have broken the law as related to their line of work. Supposed that I did though, and I worked in a small company, and repeatedly had multiple co-workers being caught for illegal things directly related to the work that the company does, then YES it would make me look suspicious.

I am not really commenting on the LA part, just a bad example you used.
because ALL your coworkers were busted working SOMEWHERE ELSE not at your company. So why not blame their PRESENT employers?

does Basso and Hamilton's busts (and Bjarnes admission) diminish Sastre's victory?

that is still guilt by association but has far more plausible links (same Team) than any of Armstrongs. Even this is laughable in a court

Gawd,I hope NONE of your likes ever sit on a jury
 

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atpjunkie said:
because ALL your coworkers were busted working SOMEWHERE ELSE not at your company. So why not blame their PRESENT employers?

does Basso and Hamilton's busts (and Bjarnes admission) diminish Sastre's victory?

that is still guilt by association but has far more plausible links (same Team) than any of Armstrongs. Even this is laughable in a court

Gawd,I hope NONE of your likes ever sit on a jury
Calm down, cool those jets, race horse. As Confucius would say: "Less Tiger; More PANDA!"

I didn't say anybody was guilty; I just said it was suspicious. I stand by that- if I am a broker, start my own small brokerage business up with a few friends, then after a few years they go to different companies and several get busted for breaking all kinds of SEC rules, then YES it doesn't look good on me.

This is just the old adage- birds of feather flock together. Or- your reputation is built by the people you surround yourself with.

Nothing new here, no revolutionary thoughts going on, nothing "grounds breaking", nothing that says I wont be a great juror sometime in the future...
 

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Kestreljr said:
Calm down, cool those jets, race horse. As Confucius would say: "Less Tiger; More PANDA!"

I didn't say anybody was guilty; I just said it was suspicious. I stand by that- if I am a broker, start my own small brokerage business up with a few friends, then after a few years they go to different companies and several get busted for breaking all kinds of SEC rules, then YES it doesn't look good on me.

This is just the old adage- birds of feather flock together. Or- your reputation is built by the people you surround yourself with.

Nothing new here, no revolutionary thoughts going on, nothing "grounds breaking", nothing that says I wont be a great juror sometime in the future...
You've really dealt with a hysterical argument nicely. The associations are evidence.

By pointing out those associations you're not condemning anyone.

These associations do happen to belong with a mountain of other evidence which does point toward guilt though.
 

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Of course it diminishes LA's wins. Even those who are slow on the uptake have realized that he had a team of dopers, and he competed against other dopers who had their own team of dopers. Now all true believers that Armstrong has left are the nutters with their religious-like support like ATP.
 

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dude check my history regarding the subject

Under ACrookedSky said:
Of course it diminishes LA's wins. Even those who are slow on the uptake have realized that he had a team of dopers, and he competed against other dopers who had their own team of dopers. Now all true believers that Armstrong has left are the nutters with their religious-like support like ATP.
before spouting such crap

the only thing I'm a fan of is logic

do I think he doped is entirely another question

do I think one can prove it via this method? no,it is laughable

in fact it is all of you with your hate-boy attitudes that clouds your thinking
you are the ones working on emotion, which interferes with reason
tiswhy you are calling menames.ad homs are the work of people who can't make a valid point.
I am completely removed from the subject, so I see how silly this line of debate is

and I also noticed NONE of you answered my question

So since Sastre won
and Sastre rides for CSC
and CSC's DS doped
and Basso while being CSCs GC head doped
and Hamilton while riding for CSC doped
BY YOUR LOGIC
we therefore conclude : Sastre dopes/doped

no in actuality whether Sastredopesornot is INCONSEQUENTIAL to the statements before it

and these guys are/were all on the same squad when busted
which makes it afar closer connection
than Hamilton busted @CSC/Phonak but LA associated guilt
Landis,busted at Phonak, LA associated guilt
Heras busted at LibertySeguros (as was Nozal and a few other riders via OP)
LA associated guilt

so each rider has many more plausible sources to their doping but you want to back date it all to LA
that shows your bias is clearly driven and skewed
 

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I won't get into a piss fight with anyone and I am not attacking anyone but I will say this.....

There is literally MOUNTAINS of real evidence that Lance doped....the Kenacort positive in 99...he tested positive for a cortico steroid!!! which give the second best performance enhancement to a high crit, and what about the epo positives in his urine...Urine can be "tampered with" at any time so why do some discredit the results from re-testing stored urine. Because Lance has good lawyers that's why.
What about sworn testimony from respected people that had nothing to gain and everything to loose by telling the truth...but of course they must be lying. There is a recorded telephone conversation in which 800 cc "refils" for Discovery is mentioned and in the same conversation it is mentioned that Lance and another riders dumped Landis's "refil" down the toilet so that he would have a crappy day.


I am sick and tired of people supporting Armstrong....even his own team mates didn't like the prick .I don't give a F that he doped but to say that he was clean and to jump up and down about all this time and to say that "you can do it clean like me" and to tell other riders that he didn't dope and that they shouldn't either, sickens me. He should have just shut the F up or better yet do what a real class act did ...admit his doping.
"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope. Jacque Anquetil

If it wasn't for Eddy Mercyx getting Ferarri to accept Armstrong as a client he would have been simply a decent classic rider at best. The guy only had an 82 VO2 max...good but certainly not great. ..and no you don't go from a classic rider to a 7 time TDF winner by training harder and loosing 10-12 pounds. You do it by going from 5.5 watts per kilo at threshold to 6.7 watts per kilo and that takes some serious jacking.

I have raced clean as well as jacked with a high crit. I know first had the incredible power of a high crit. I can assure you that if Lance had was not jacked, and especially if he did not jack his crit, that he wouldn't have even finished in the top 50..FOR SURE


Nuff said....

Cheers
 

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atpjunkie said:
before spouting such crap

the only thing I'm a fan of is logic

do I think he doped is entirely another question

do I think one can prove it via this method? no,it is laughable

in fact it is all of you with your hate-boy attitudes that clouds your thinking
you are the ones working on emotion, which interferes with reason
tiswhy you are calling menames.ad homs are the work of people who can't make a valid point.
I am completely removed from the subject, so I see how silly this line of debate is

and I also noticed NONE of you answered my question

So since Sastre won
and Sastre rides for CSC
and CSC's DS doped
and Basso while being CSCs GC head doped
and Hamilton while riding for CSC doped
BY YOUR LOGIC
we therefore conclude : Sastre dopes/doped

no in actuality whether Sastredopesornot is INCONSEQUENTIAL to the statements before it

and these guys are/were all on the same squad when busted
which makes it afar closer connection
than Hamilton busted @CSC/Phonak but LA associated guilt
Landis,busted at Phonak, LA associated guilt
Heras busted at LibertySeguros (as was Nozal and a few other riders via OP)
LA associated guilt

so each rider has many more plausible sources to their doping but you want to back date it all to LA
that shows your bias is clearly driven and skewed
You're being hysterical here.

No one is saying that LA is guilty based on his associations alone. Even if those associations are only 1/100th of 1 percent of the evidence against him, they are in fact evidence.

And that evidence, when you are surrounded by a team, and in fact an entire sport that is drugged up to it's eyeballs, doesn't look favorable to anyone, especially considering the facts that there is a mountain of other evidence against you.

Lance's defense is that there is a conspiracy out to get him.

One of the most laughable assertions he has made is that Betsey Andreu made up her story because she hates Lance. She's ruining her husband's career and cutting off Frankie's financial opportunities so much, because she hates Lance. As does Swart and Jonathon Vaughters..

Why would Betsey ruin her husbands close personal friendship with a guy who could help provide her husband with an ever more lucrative career by lying about the golden goose?

You're arguments are completely illogical in the face of a mountain of evidence..

You say you are a fan of logic but you are using a tactic Bruce Cutler would have employed.
 

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Of course Lance doped.

How anyone (who is knowledgeable on the subject of pro racing and doping in the sport) can possibly think otherwise is amazing to me.

The mountain of evidence is there in plain sight.

I was a huge fan of LA back before his cancer. I was a fan as he won his first Tours. But I'm also not a fool. Taking an open-minded look at all the evidence has convinced me that all of the top riders of his era doped. Lance was no exception. He was however, EXCEPTIONALLY good at doping. He (and Johan and Ferrari) put together a pharmaceutical plan and regime unlike any other top team had and reaped the rewards mightily.

I have a really hard time listening to Paul, Phil, Bobke and etc. now.... They just yammer on about amazing performances all the while ignoring the pink elephant in the room. I guess I don't blame them...their careers were built on the sport.
I especially have a hard time stomaching Bruneel when he's a guest commentator.

I'm not much of a fan of pro cycling anymore. I do follow the Tour and check in at cyclingnews.com to see what's going on within the sport/doping culture though.
 

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zero85ZEN said:
Of course Lance doped.

How anyone (who is knowledgeable on the subject of pro racing and doping in the sport) can possibly think otherwise is amazing to me.

The mountain of evidence is there in plain sight.

I was a huge fan of LA back before his cancer. I was a fan as he won his first Tours. But I'm also not a fool. Taking an open-minded look at all the evidence has convinced me that all of the top riders of his era doped. Lance was no exception. He was however, EXCEPTIONALLY good at doping. He (and Johan and Ferrari) put together a pharmaceutical plan and regime unlike any other top team had and reaped the rewards mightily.

I have a really hard time listening to Paul, Phil, Bobke and etc. now.... They just yammer on about amazing performances all the while ignoring the pink elephant in the room. I guess I don't blame them...their careers were built on the sport.
I especially have a hard time stomaching Bruneel when he's a guest commentator.

I'm not much of a fan of pro cycling anymore. I do follow the Tour and check in at cyclingnews.com to see what's going on within the sport/doping culture though.

Don't be upset that Lance doped. Be upset that not all the riders had such a rich team that could buy the best doping program and best riders. Be a little mad a Eddy Mercyx for asking Ferarri to take Lance on. Eddy should have chose a "nicer" guy like Landis...Lance didn't deserve it.
Be upset about Lances' ranting that he was clean...and that he wanted to clean up the sport.....and that he said that it can be done clean...and that the message to the general public was that as long as you really put your mind to a task almost anything can be done and you don't need drugs.

It's not a pink Elephant in the room....it's a Pink BLUE WHALE!

So don't give up on pro cycling. Accept that they are all doped to one degree or another and get very angry at UCI and WADA for wrecking the sport.

As long as millions are to be made in pro sport doping simply cannot stop and to think otherwise is deluding ourselves. When will the general public figure this out?!
If they want clean riders then take away the big contracts, and the big money from endorsements and that my friends is never going to happen...not in this world.

Be upset that Lance was a coward and didn't have the guts or class of the following man...
"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope" Jacques Anquetil

Cheers
 

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atpjunkie said:
before spouting such crap

the only thing I'm a fan of is logic
ROTFL. Sure, buddy. You are the one living in a fantasy world where you'll concede that LA probably doped, but anytime anyone mentions any evidence that he did so, you fly off the handle and denounce it. I said it before: Belief in immaculate doping.

Also in this fantasy world, all of LA's super domestiques getting busted for doping somehow does not say anything about what they must have been doing when riding for LA.

The world according to ATP: Beltran was using EPO in 1999 (retrotested urine from the 1999 Tour showed this); he joined Postal and quit then he started again after going to Liquigas, where he was busted. Heras was part of the Kelme teamwide doping program where he won the Vuelta; he went to Postal and stopped doping but still won the Vuelta; then he went to the Liberty Seguros teamwide doping program and won the Vuelta twice before getting busted. Landis was using more HGH than anyone Clinger had ever seen; he went to Postal and rode clean then went to Phonak, where he started doping again before getting busted. In 1998 Hamilton asked Postal's doctor to give him and Marty Jemison dope; after Armstrong joined the team, he rode clean; then he went to CSC and Phonak, where he started doping before getting busted. Kevin Livingston was introduced to Dr. Ferrari while on the Postal team but he never used Ferrari's doping advice; he left and went to T-Mobile, where he then decided to ask for Dr. Ferrari's help doping (which is shown in Ferrari's record from that year). That is a strange strange world you live in, ATP.
 

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Under ACrookedSky said:
ROTFL. Sure, buddy. You are the one living in a fantasy world where you'll concede that LA probably doped, but anytime anyone mentions any evidence that he did so, you fly off the handle and denounce it. I said it before: Belief in immaculate doping.

Also in this fantasy world, all of LA's super domestiques getting busted for doping somehow does not say anything about what they must have been doing when riding for LA.

The world according to ATP: Beltran was using EPO in 1999 (retrotested urine from the 1999 Tour showed this); he joined Postal and quit then he started again after going to Liquigas, where he was busted. Heras was part of the Kelme teamwide doping program where he won the Vuelta; he went to Postal and stopped doping but still won the Vuelta; then he went to the Liberty Seguros teamwide doping program and won the Vuelta twice before getting busted. Landis was using more HGH than anyone Clinger had ever seen; he went to Postal and rode clean then went to Phonak, where he started doping again before getting busted. In 1998 Hamilton asked Postal's doctor to give him and Marty Jemison dope; after Armstrong joined the team, he rode clean; then he went to CSC and Phonak, where he started doping before getting busted. Kevin Livingston was introduced to Dr. Ferrari while on the Postal team but he never used Ferrari's doping advice; he left and went to T-Mobile, where he then decided to ask for Dr. Ferrari's help doping (which is shown in Ferrari's record from that year). That is a strange strange world you live in, ATP.


People need to eat up and thoroughly digest this classic.

Cheers
 
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