Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does it make any difference if a rim has eyelets or not? Do eyelets generally signify better quality rims?

I've used Mavic Open Pros predominantly on my bikes, and they have eyelets as do most Mavic rims. However, some high quality rims sold by other manufacturers (eg, Velocity) do not have eyelets. The rims that I am leaning toward using on my touring wheelset are Velocity Dyads (no eyelets), Velocity Synergy (one set of eyelets) and Mavic A719s (two sets of eyelets). Should I even care about the eyelets when ordering my rims?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,103 Posts
IME the single eyelet rims tend to be the most likely to crack, since they are generally used on a rim with a gently rounded top that is not properly reinforced. The Synergy is an example of that. Double eyelets that use both the inner and outer rim wall are usually good, as are uneyeletted rims that have a more triangular shape and thick reinforcing at the spoke holes. The A719 and the Dyad are both good rims.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
832 Posts
I've never had a problem with an eyelet cracking on a Mavic rim. My Mavic Module E2 wheels were running fine - for 25 years - with no cracking problems.

I recently retired them and scavenged the Campagnolo Record hubset. Still perfect.
 

·
Use my Apps :)
Joined
·
959 Posts
My Mavic MA3 where shite (cracked) and they have eyelets. My Velocity Fusions have no eyelets and I'm convinced I can pound the daylights out of them and they will just laugh at me and ask for more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,638 Posts
Design detail

tarwheel2 said:
Does it make any difference if a rim has eyelets or not? Do eyelets generally signify better quality rims?
Eyelets are just one way to spread the forces of the spoke to the rim structure. Eyelets alone are not either good or bad. My wife and I have been using (non-eyelet) Velocity rims for years and over 100,000 miles with no real problems that could be in any way attributed to the lack of eyelets.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,134 Posts
I'm pretty good on wheels. My Mavic Reflex SUP's were from 1996 and had over 35,000 kilometres on them, mostly terrible riding conditions since these were bad weather rims. I rode them 2-3 years in europe while a resident there and then 2 years in the USA, 2007-2009. Remember all bad weather riding.

https://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/Medcorp/Bike Wheels/MavicSUPUBReflex.jpg
They busted loose yesterday evening after a 25 mile bumpy ride. R.I.P.:cryin:

https://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/Medcorp/Bike Wheels/BontragerRims2024Trek24002.jpg
Here is a set of Bontrag what-ever name Select from a 2006 Trek ZR9000 and these lasted me 1/10 the distance at 2,800 miles 1/2 a season before letting go last year on me.

https://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/Medcorp/Bike Wheels/BontragerRims2024Trek2400.jpg

Bottom line, it's more about the quality of the build and tension of the spokes. If you buy a great set of wheels and they're not tensioned properly you'll end up with junk. The wheels have to be correctly loaded.

My Mavic Reflex SUP w/Dura Ace 8SIS hubs was called age ...1996- all the miles and travel, moves and boxing, lastly riding on New England roads for the grand finale... did them in.... did'em in.:cryin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,830 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If eyelets don't matter, I am inclined to go with the Velocity Dyad rims. They are a little less expensive than the Mavic A719s and weigh about 175 grams less for the set. I like the classic look of the Velocity Synergys, but they aren't rated as highly for carrying loads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Rims crack at the spoke holes for all kinds of reasons. Many spoking designs (especially irregular spoke spacings) are not really designed to equalize stress on the rim, so they tend to pop more often. Also many rims aren't designed either for the tensions used or for the dishing involved.

Plus, as a general matter, rim extrusions are made more and more with either thinner wall thicknesses or with irregular thicknesses. Thinner wall thicknesses of course make the rim lighter, which drives sales. Irregular thicknesses come about from using extrusion dies that are past their prime. Velocity Deep V's were rather notorious about this problem for a while, as were Mavic Reflexes. When the extrusion die gets old, it causes the wall thickness to be too thick in one place, too thin in another. This then gets compounded because you keep tensioning spokes that lace into the thin sections, but the rim just gives way before high tension is achieved. You compensate with higher tension elsewhere and ultimately either the wheel is overtensioned or the thin-wall section is simply undertensioned.

Eyelets were a solution to the need for more reinforcement with thinner rim walls. The problem is that a small hole (just enough to fit the nipple or even just the spoke shaft when using internal nipples) leaves a lot more metal around it to support the nipple. When you install a ferrule, it requires a significantly bigger hole and also decreases the amount of rim section that bears the tension of the spoke. As a result, the spoke is more likely to pull through. You can improve the ferrule a bit, or use a more complex extrusion that leaves greater thickness right at the spoke hole, or use a washer or other internal support for the spoke. All these methods improve rim reliability. But there's nothing magical or curative about ferrules (eyelets). If the rim wall thickness is too thin or tension is too high or the build is bad in any way, you'll have a problem
 

·
Banned forever.....or not
Joined
·
24,427 Posts
Rims with eyelets are easier to build up into wheels because you get less friction in the nipple/rim interface when increasing spoke tension.
If a rim isn't made with double eyelets, the spoke nipple area must be made thicker to prevent "pull through".
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,134 Posts
11.4 and Mr Grumpy,

Thanks for the clarification on the eyelet and extrusion die explanations. I appreciate the understanding of why Mavic would have great success with their product [example RELEX SUP] and such a mixed review on reliability over the years manufactured ...example one customer saying their rim is bomb proof while another customer complaining they're junk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,103 Posts
MR_GRUMPY said:
Rims with eyelets are easier to build up into wheels because you get less friction in the nipple/rim interface when increasing spoke tension.
I've had the opposite experience... but I also chamfer the rim slightly at the nipple interface.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,452 Posts
EverydayRide said:
11.4 and Mr Grumpy,

Thanks for the clarification on the eyelet and extrusion die explanations. I appreciate the understanding of why Mavic would have great success with their product [example RELEX SUP] and such a mixed review on reliability over the years manufactured ...example one customer saying their rim is bomb proof while another customer complaining they're junk.
I'm always take individual reviews with a grain of salt. You've got to know whether the wheel was built by a competent builder or a boob. And you've got to know whether the wheel was used by a 250lb crusher on pot holed city streets or a 135 lb bird on polished marble roads.
Peter White knows a lot and has good things to say about Velocity rims, so if you go without eyelets, they're a safe bet.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,134 Posts
Jesse D Smith said:
I'm always take individual reviews with a grain of salt. You've got to know whether the wheel was built by a competent builder or a boob. And you've got to know whether the wheel was used by a 250lb crusher on pot holed city streets or a 135 lb bird on polished marble roads.
I completely agree, but if given two equals [same wheel builder] and one set that blows up and the other that hangs in there ...it's comforting to know some facts about the "processes" such as extrusion and varied controlled thicknesses out of tollerances. My Mavic SUP Reflex rims lasted 35,000 kilometres before giving up the ghost and the LBS said that he's never seen a set last that long. [He jinxed me?].




Jesse D Smith said:
Peter White knows a lot and has good things to say about Velocity rims, so if you go without eyelets, they're a safe bet.
I've just ordered from BWW an eyelet -less set of wheels. You can see I'm not looking for a 1.8/1.6 DT spoke for lighteness. I went with a heavier gauge and brass nipples too.

700C DT Swiss RR1.2
Rear Wheel Ultegra 6600 8/9/10
Front Wheel Ultegra 6600
Nipple Options - DT Brass Black
Rim Options - Black Spoke Options - DT Comp Black 2.0/1.8
Quantity: 1
Product Code: 10511 Price: $322.45
Packaging: $17.25
Tax: $0.00
Grand Total: $339.70
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,638 Posts
Not quite right

11.4 said:
When the extrusion die gets old, it causes the wall thickness to be too thick in one place, too thin in another.
Only half right. As the die wears, the gap becomes larger and the wall thickness increases. It is most unlikely that the die gap would decrease and make the rim wall thinner. That die wear might not be uniform, and some sections of the rim wall might get "more thicker" than others, but no part of the rim wall is going to get thinner. You can be pretty correct in saying that a worn extrusion die results in a stronger rim.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,134 Posts
Kerry Irons said:
Only half right. As the die wears, the gap becomes larger and the wall thickness increases.
In Archard wear models but once you CNC machine the braking areas or the pinned/welded surfaces of that rim you're machining an extrusion w/possible thinned/flawed walls from its inside - now CNC machined outsides results in an even thinner over all tollerance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
eyelets tend to spread the load, but that load needs to be even

Hey HO wheel builders, I have found that retrofitting dial indicators on my TS-2 truing stand has improved wheel building alot. Not only does the rim fall within .008 or .02mm in lateral wobble, but with that tight tolerance every spoke's tension seems very very even.
We have riverbeds for testing wheels and they definately stay more true using the dial's ability to see every spoke's influence on the rim.
All this in about 30% of the time it normally takes.

I happen to produce those retrofit kits and would be willing to send pix, info and testamonials ( or visit sicklines.com for their review)
everyone likes true wheels. Happier trails, Paul morningstar
[email protected] ( for a complete listing of tools offered )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,638 Posts
Bi-directional

EverydayRide said:
In Archard wear models but once you CNC machine the braking areas or the pinned/welded surfaces of that rim you're machining an extrusion w/possible thinned/flawed walls from its inside - now CNC machined outsides results in an even thinner over all tollerance.
The die is getting wider in BOTH directions, so the inner and outer surfaces of the rim wall are both farther from the center line. Assuming that the machining of brake sidewalls takes place either based on removing a given amount of material or based on achieving a given edge to edge spacing, there still would be more material after the machining if the sidewall was thicker to start. It's hard to imagine a scenario where you would end up with thinner walls if your extrusion die was worn.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,134 Posts
Kerry Irons said:
It's hard to imagine a scenario where you would end up with thinner walls if your extrusion die was worn.
So, no one in the industry has a micrometre or a pair of calipers and the general manufacturing facitlity does not have an inspection room and are not ISO 9200 approved and they let dies just fade like a bunch of wax candles fully lit.:idea:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,638 Posts
Latest news

EverydayRide said:
So, no one in the industry has a micrometre or a pair of calipers and the general manufacturing facitlity does not have an inspection room and are not ISO 9200 approved and they let dies just fade like a bunch of wax candles fully lit.:idea:

I was born at night, but not last night.
Actually, ISO 9XXX is nice to talk about, but there have been NUMEROUS examples of rim weights increasing with time due to die wear, and even cases where the manufacturers have effectively said "Yes, our rims are heavier than they used to be, but they're still within specification. The weights will drop again when we replace the extrusion dies." It's nice to talk about theory and experiences from other industries, but this is the reality in the bike biz.

BTW, if there is need for you to post another photo, please downsize it a bit so it doesn't blow up the whole page. BTW2, there are VERY few folks reading this thread who will get much learning value from all your extrusion dies hanging on a piece of plywood. Just saying. :)
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top