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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)

· monkey with flamethrower
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Pinarello, like most Italian companies merely does the finish work on their frames. Almost all Pinarello frames have been made in Taiwan for a very long time.
I didn't see any welding, carbon fiber molds or anything that involved building a frame and not finishing a frame. They finish their frames in Italy, nothing more.
The Dogma is to the best of my knowledge the only frame they still make in Italy. Their Aluminum frames are welded in Taiwan and they insert the carbon fiber rear(also made in Taiwan) end in the frame and paint it in Italy and their carbon frames are molded in Taiwan and then shipped to Italy to be painted.
It's how bike building is done in Italy.Italy loves to outsource but doesn't like to tell anyone that most things made in Italy are not actually made in Italy.
I'm not bashing Pinarello, just saying how it is.
 

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Everybody saids top of the line Pinarellos ie; Prince, Paris are made in Italy however I couldn't find a single video or picture shot of them laying up the carbon fibers with resin on the mandrel or putting the entire pre-made assembly into a thermal vac chamber. These videos seem to show them in Italy putting the final touches on the frames. Don't get me wrong, I got a prince and think it's the best frame ever designed and made. I am just wondering where the origin of the frame was made and so far I am not getting sure, fool-proof answers.
 

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tjjm36m3 said:
Everybody saids top of the line Pinarellos ie; Prince, Paris are made in Italy however I couldn't find a single video or picture shot of them laying up the carbon fibers with resin on the mandrel or putting the entire pre-made assembly into a thermal vac chamber. These videos seem to show them in Italy putting the final touches on the frames. Don't get me wrong, I got a prince and think it's the best frame ever designed and made. I am just wondering where the origin of the frame was made and so far I am not getting sure, fool-proof answers.
as i said ...Taiwans bit is only the core carbon framing. Theres a number of high tech carbon manufacturing plants that are quite capable of making the core frames for Pinarello. They are Advanced International Multitech, Cycleurope or even Merida.
The general rule is 60%. So if a measure of 60% of the product(origin) is made or assembled in Pinarellos plant then its justified that they can tag the bike as Made in Italy.
Now, if you want to look deeper into the building process and really look into Pinarellos brilliant mind then you will understand the purpose of Most :)
 

· monkey with flamethrower
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As I've said before Pinarellos are made in Taiwan. All Pinarellos except the Dogma, and even then the Dogma could be made in Taiwan right now as there is a facility in Taiwan that has magnesium frame building capability.
There are lots of facilities in Italy that are capable of making a high end bicycle frame, but bike frames have to be made cheaply and Italian labor is not cheap. As much as everyone wants to think that Pinarellos are somewhat made in Italy, the truth is that they are not. Even Fausto Pinarello himself has stated that his carbon fiber frames are made in the far east in a recent issue of Bicycle Retailer and Industry News. Italy has trade laws that state that if a certain amount of labor is put into a product, ie finishing a bike in Italy the product can be labeled made in Italy. Thats how most Italian and European bicycle companies operate with product made somewhere else and finished and boxed in Italy to get the coveted made in Italy sticker.
 

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Man I tell ya, laying up carbon fiber, especially uni-directional fibers, are by far very complex. My company deals with many composite manufacturers and many of them interprets our drawings differently. They always get the unidirectional layup direction wrong ie; -60, 0, +60 etc or even a simple -45, 0, +45. It is always said that the same drawing sent to two different manufacturers will result in identical parts yet two completely different partsl. That's the reason why we always do static load on them to verify they meet the tensile or compression requirements. More complex structures even require acoustic testing for workmanship verification and to see if there is first ply delam on the structure.

Many composite technicians here in the US cannot simply read our drawing correctly and they don't take the time or have the proper training to read the standards manual for composite manufacturing. Getting more efficient in carbon fiber manufacturing only comes with experience. I don't know if Paris or Prince have unidirectional or fabric woven plys. But whatever it is, the added complexity comes in amount of resin used and applied, the making of the core or mandrel, the efficiency of the thermal vac chamber. Again experience is key. I'm sure Taiwan had made some bad frames before, but their advantage is they probably come across many modes of anomaly due to their large production scale and hopefully learn from their mistakes. So whatever people said that carbon fiber frames made in Taiwan are less superior to ones made in US, I tell them they don't know the whole story. I probably will feel "safer" knowing my prince frame was made in Taiwan.

Also anyone noticed that the new composite Boeing 787 have most of its carbon fiber sub-assemblies made overseas. I know for sure Japan makes the wings. They don't outsource to Japan because of cheaper labor.
 

· l'illustre sconosciuto
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tjjm36m3 said:
Man I tell ya, laying up carbon fiber, especially uni-directional fibers, are by far very complex. My company deals with many composite manufacturers and many of them interprets our drawings differently. They always get the unidirectional layup direction wrong ie; -60, 0, +60 etc or even a simple -45, 0, +45. It is always said that the same drawing sent to two different manufacturers will result in identical parts yet two completely different partsl. That's the reason why we always do static load on them to verify they meet the tensile or compression requirements. More complex structures even require acoustic testing for workmanship verification and to see if there is first ply delam on the structure.

Many composite technicians here in the US cannot simply read our drawing correctly and they don't take the time or have the proper training to read the standards manual for composite manufacturing. Getting more efficient in carbon fiber manufacturing only comes with experience. I don't know if Paris or Prince have unidirectional or fabric woven plys. But whatever it is, the added complexity comes in amount of resin used and applied, the making of the core or mandrel, the efficiency of the thermal vac chamber. Again experience is key. I'm sure Taiwan had made some bad frames before, but their advantage is they probably come across many modes of anomaly due to their large production scale and hopefully learn from their mistakes. So whatever people said that carbon fiber frames made in Taiwan are less superior to ones made in US, I tell them they don't know the whole story. I probably will feel "safer" knowing my prince frame was made in Taiwan.

Also anyone noticed that the new composite Boeing 787 have most of its carbon fiber sub-assemblies made overseas. I know for sure Japan makes the wings. They don't outsource to Japan because of cheaper labor.
I don't know where you guys get your work done, but laying out carbon is one of the most mind-numbing and simple things to do. It takes no more than 15 minutes to train a new employee as to how it is done. It is about as low tech as you can get. It sounds more like your designers don't know how to lay out your drawings. It is work ideally suited to smaller fingers and hands, which explains why so much is done in China and Taiwan. As for the comment about wings being made in Japan, I would rather guess that this has to do with export licenses of strategic fibers. In fact certain carbon fibers cannot be exported without meeting hugely complex export licensing requirements.
 
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