[rocklax]

So I built my first wheelset. Laced everything, put the front wheel in the stand, was fairly quickly able to obtain lateral and radial truing without much issue. Then I tried the rear wheel, what a trainwreck :mad2:

The thing is in bad shape. Any advice? Do I take it apart and start again, do I just need to keep fine tuning? I really don't know but I've spent quite awhile of time on it to no avail. It is a potato chip.

Help.

 

[krisdrum]

Could be a bad rim, but if it was pretty true before being laced, that is probably not the issue. I'd probably take it apart and make sure that the spoke lengths on DS and NDS are correct. Maybe you swapped a few and the shorter spoke(s) on the wrong side are pulling everything out of whack.

 

[mikerp]

Do you have a tension meter?
How did you initially tighten up the spokes?
Did you set the spoke heads? and bend spokes to line up with their path of travel?

 

[rocklax]

No tension meter, Munson's book said not to worry about one and go by tone (worked fine for the front wheel).

For the spokes I tightened each by hand around the rim, then I took my nipple driver and snugged everything around the rim evenly. I then started 1 full turn with a Spokey around the rim evenly.

I did attempt to line up the spokes path of travel.

 

[mikerp]

You can't really snug things up around the rim with a nipple driver, you need to count thread engagement.
Think of it this way, you start at 12 oclock and snug things up, by the time you get to 6 oclock you snugged things up around half the wheel, what was snug at the start no longer applies. It might work if you did it in a "cross torque" pattern, but not moving around the rim radially.

I'd say you have 2 options:
1) Back off the spokes to a point that you can reasonably be sure you have the same thread engagement
2)Take a spare spoke or a screwdriver bit and make a tool so that you can set all the spokes to the same position from the back of the nipple
Wheel Fanatyk: Wheelbuilding Tip #15 - Spin Those Nipples

Once you've done either 1 or 2 turn each nipple a set amount, one pass at a time.
The wheel should come in much better.

As I deal with standards and calibration, tension meters should all point back to a standard at some point in time. Our ears don't, while I have ears, I don't think I would cut it as a piano/guitar tuner so I'll stick with an actual meter.

On a side note, I saw a "How it's made" video on a wheel maker for what I'll tag as a major vendor, the techs lacing the wheels did the usual plucking and tuning, At the end the wheel went to QC where they actual measured things and recorded the numbers, based on the accompanying data chart generated I'd be eliminating the plucking and move to a meter. The spread on spoke tension readings would come down a bit.

 

[Mike T.]

For the spokes I tightened each by hand around the rim, then I took my nipple driver and snugged everything around the rim evenly. I then started 1 full turn with a Spokey around the rim evenly.

You're probably now all out of whack with the number of nipple turns. I would suggest this - loosen everything off until the first thread just shows. Then, as you now have no frame of reference, start counting turns - even if some nipples seem to be applying more pressure than others.

I would start with one whole turn after the threads just vanish. Then, depending on how tight or loose the nipples are as a generalization, do another full turn or 1/2 a turn. Then, you must keep the numbers of turns equal (and not miss a nipple or turn one the wrong way) until you have some tension and you start the truing/dishing process.

It's all on my site.

 

[Mike T.]

tension meters should all point back to a standard at some point in time. Our ears don't

We use the pluck method for tension relativity, not ultimate tension. Relativity, by sound, is quite easy for anyone to gauge. Even a tension meter doesn't need re-calibrating unless a tension measurement is needed. One could assume the calibration of a meter wouldn't change from one spoke to the next. It might from year to year though.

 

[mikerp]

Even a tension meter doesn't need re-calibrating unless a tension measurement is needed. One could assume the calibration of a meter wouldn't change from one spoke to the next. It might from year to year though.

If you are doing a single job and you are not interested in an actual value, calibration doesn't matter, the tensions are all relative to each other but you don't know what the value is.
On the other hand if you want to tension to the edge of the spec for a specific type spoke, a tension meter should point back to a standard. If it doesn't you stand the risk of under or over shooting your target.
The other case is if you want to trend a wheel over time, if the meter is not calibrated to a standard you won't be able to do this.

 

[Mike T.]

If you are doing a single job and you are not interested in an actual value, calibration doesn't matter, the tensions are all relative to each other but you don't know what the value is.
On the other hand if you want to tension to the edge of the spec for a specific type spoke, a tension meter should point back to a standard. If it doesn't you stand the risk of under or over shooting your target.
The other case is if you want to trend a wheel over time, if the meter is not calibrated to a standard you won't be able to do this.

You think I don't know all that? Rocklax doesn't have one as he's going the Roger Musson route (and the one I suggest too on my site) of not measuring tension but judging it relative to a known good wheel. Then, as relative tensions are much more important than ultimate tightness, the relativity gained from plucking, listening and equalizing is a very good method.

 

[mikerp]

You think I don't know all that? Rocklax doesn't have one as he's going the Roger Musson route (and the one I suggest too on my site) of not measuring tension but judging it relative to a known good wheel. Then, as relative tensions are much more important than ultimate tightness, the relativity gained from plucking, listening and equalizing is a very good method.

I'm pretty sure you know it.
As to plucking, yes it can be done, on the other hand it's success is tied to a persons hearing ability and these vary greatly.

BTW I do think you have a great info site.

 

[dcgriz]

For the spokes I tightened each by hand around the rim, then I took my nipple driver and snugged everything around the rim evenly. I then started 1 full turn with a Spokey around the rim evenly.

I did attempt to line up the spokes path of travel.

IMO, "snugged everything around the rim evenly" leaves a lot of room for error. Why dont you follow Musson's approach and make a nipple driver with a 3mm tip and then take off the slack until the nipple driver disengages from the nipple as Musson describes? Then continue with the Spokey and even number of turns.

 

[Mike T.]

As I deal with standards and calibration, tension meters should all point back to a standard at some point in time.

Just one more comment. I wonder how many tension meters ever get their calibration re-checked? Few? Almost none? Maybe some pro builders with their expensive ones get them done but the average guy with his plastic meter? I wonder about the repeatable accuracy of the readings of these inexpensive ones anyway.

There was a online article a while back about wheelbuilding at the Shimano factory and their high-end wheels. They claimed their meters were re-calibrated 2x daily.

 

[mikerp]

Just one more comment. I wonder how many tension meters ever get their calibration re-checked? Few? Almost none? Maybe some pro builders with their expensive ones get them done but the average guy with his plastic meter? I wonder about the repeatable accuracy of the readings of these inexpensive ones anyway.

There was a online article a while back about wheelbuilding at the Shimano factory and their high-end wheels. They claimed their meters were re-calibrated 2x daily.

Some terms are being misused, most likely in the article.
I have no doubt Shimano does a calibration verification multiple times during the day, if they actually had to "recalibrate" 2x a day they should be looking for some other tools as the tool is not holding it's calibration.

One of the industry stds for this type of thing is verify the tool is measuring correctly at the beginning of the task (shift) and verify it is correct at the end of the task (shift). If it fails at the end of task you need to go back and redo the work, if it passes all is well.

Recalibration is not a requirement with all tools, if it's a basic tool and it passes a calibration check it's considered "in cal".

Any actual tool calibration is much more in depth than a cal check, and these should be tailored to the tool and it's use not based on a random time frame that seems like a good idea.

Going back to my original statement - "tension meters should all point back to a standard at some point in time" - depending on the design of a tool and how it's handled a tool could be good for a "lifetime".

I know for a fact I don't have a calibrated ear, and with the amount of firearms I've been around and occasional ear ringing I rely on a basic tension meter for my personal wheel building. The basic tension meter cost is most likely on par with the cost of a set of dbl butted spokes for a set of wheels.

 

[Mike T.]

Some terms are being misused, most likely in the article.

I'm sure that between Japanese (or whatever country their wheel factory is in and the language of the tour guide), its translation, story writing, a couple of years of passing time and my re-telling, a word might have been misused. I hope we can agree that they probably verify (and re-adjust if necessary!) at frequent intervals - or, maybe not, depending on the quality of the anecdote or blatant BS.

 

[Mike T.]

BTW I do think you have a great info site.

Thank you! It's a lot of fun and hearing from those who get their wheelbuilding start from it is the payment.

 

[rocklax]

Once I get home I'm going to back off till I have one thread all the way around. Then I guess I'll start counting turns. I guess I must've just lucked into a straight front wheel!