[Ventruck]

Was doing my first cassette cleaning ever since I obtained my (used) bike. First thing I noticed was that the lock ring was ridiculously tight until I managed to loosen it by a few clicks; then it quickly threaded off by finger/hand A bit new to me as lock ring removal on cassettes has been rather gradual in terms of loosening.

Anyhoo, found a foil-like ring between the lock ring and the last (12t) gear; flicking it yields no metal-like sound and it's a flexy as aluminum foil. Also noticed a white/yellow crusty residue around the area which was (luckily) removable.

Trying to make sense of it, I'm thinking the previous owner of the bike didn't realize that the foil piece was probably packaging, so he found himself unable to fully secure the lock ring onto the cassette, then used some substance to keep it together. Makes sense to me, because with that piece in the way, there's no bite at the interface between the lock ring's ridges and the last gear.

...or is that piece holding some type of exceptional significance?

 

[alias33]

it acts like a locking washer so it doesn't come loose, its in a lot of cassette lock rings

 

[Ventruck]

it acts like a locking washer so it doesn't come loose, its in a lot of cassette lock rings

Oh, silly me. Thankfully I kept it, but I'm still a bit lost conceptually as it seems that it's in the way of any bite between the lock ring and gear. In fact most of it is smooth with ridge marks only on the edge.

Well, if I've been rolling about this whole time with it set like that, guess I can't complain. Thanks.

 

[wim]

Kind of a "lubricant."

I kept it, but I'm still a bit lost conceptually as it seems that it's in the way of any bite between the lock ring and gear. In fact most of it is smooth with ridge marks only on the edge.

Correct observation—the foil washer is supposed to lessen the bite of the serrations during installation. The idea is to keep the tips of the serrations from wearing flat over the course of many lockring removals / replacements at high torques. Not sure if these washers still come with the lockring. Shimano may have decided that they're not needed because most cassette lockrings don't get removed and re-installed all that often.

 

[Pieter]

Thanks Wim for the interesting explanation. I have wondered about the purpose of this foil, too.

My cassette's lockring gets removed every 100km or so (now don't you dare laugh) to give the sprockets a 'quick' wash every time I degrease the chain.

The serrations still seem quite unworn after 10.000km (100 removals). And the foil is also still in one piece. But then I don't use high torque at all, nothing like the recommended 30-40Nm.

 

[wim]

The serrations still seem quite unworn after 10.000km (100 removals). And the foil is also still in one piece. But then I don't use high torque at all, nothing like the recommended 30-40Nm.

Well, that tells you that the foil washer works as it is supposed to. As to the torque specs: I've wondered about those myself. 30-40 Nm on a non-serrated connection makes some sense, but why spec that high a torque on a serrated connection? Only someone at Shimano knows...

Your comment on the foil washer still being in one piece is interesting. The more I think about it, that washer getting shredded because of excessive torques (like the spec'd 30-40 Nm, LOL) may have given Shimano some grief from disgruntled customers....

 

[Kerry Irons]

Lock ring torqu spec

30-40 Nm on a non-serrated connection makes some sense, but why spec that high a torque on a serrated connection?

And Campy lock rings are specified at 50 Nm. For sure they never come loose!

 

[Pieter]

I have briefly ridden the bike with a loose lockring. The sprockets moved on the splines, because there is radial play. There was a rough feel and noise.

But a light tightening of the serrated lockring seems sufficient to hold them in place. I generally tighten the ring so it can still be undone when holding the 23 sprocket in a builder's glove. A reasonable force on a big shifting wrench. I would guess around 10Nm.

There have been no adverse effects so far, but note that the hub in question - Ultegra 6500 - has steel splines and not aluminum.

 

[ultimobici]

I have briefly ridden the bike with a loose lockring. The sprockets moved on the splines, because there is radial play. There was a rough feel and noise.

But a light tightening of the serrated lockring seems sufficient to hold them in place. I generally tighten the ring so it can still be undone when holding the 23 sprocket in a builder's glove. A reasonable force on a big shifting wrench. I would guess around 10Nm.

There have been no adverse effects so far, but note that the hub in question - Ultegra 6500 - has steel splines and not aluminum.

The torque setting is there for a reason. If you can undo your cassette with builder's gloves instead of a £15 chain whip then it is way too loose. As you ride there is vibration from the road which can cause an under-tightened lockring to loosen. Also the cassette needs to be compressed properly so the spacing is correct and the sprockets cant squirm on the body.
That said, why on earth do you degrease your chain so often? If you overlube the chain I can see a reason for frequent degreasing being necessary, but even so -not every 100km?

 

[danl1]

My cassette's lockring gets removed every 100km or so (now don't you dare laugh) to give the sprockets a 'quick' wash every time I degrease the chain.

No laughter, but a suggestion: a rag dampened with mineral spirits, wd-40, etc. and sawn between the cogs in a sort of flossing motion is quick, easy, and works well.

 

[framesti]

lockring tightness

The torque setting is there for a reason. If you can undo your cassette with builder's gloves instead of a £15 chain whip then it is way too loose. As you ride there is vibration from the road which can cause an under-tightened lockring to loosen. Also the cassette needs to be compressed properly so the spacing is correct and the sprockets cant squirm on the body.
That said, why on earth do you degrease your chain so often? If you overlube the chain I can see a reason for frequent degreasing being necessary, but even so -not every 100km?

In practice should the torque be less without this foil washer?

 

[RC28]

My cassette's lockring gets removed every 100km or so

For me that would mean 4-5 times a week during the season!!! Ouch!

But hey, if you can find the time for that...

 

[Pieter]

The torque setting is there for a reason - to prevent the sprockets from squirming on the splines, possibly damaging them. But I think 30-40Nm is on the tight side. As I said, I have observed the symptoms of loose sprockets. At 10Nm or so, those effects are nonexistent.

Vibration from the road? More like vibration from the running of the chain on the sprockets. And the whole point of the serrations in the first place is that the locknut does not come undone on its own.

About cleaning - yes flossing is a quick option. But believe me, removal is quick. Hold a wire ready, slide the sprockets onto it, tie into a loop. Wipe with a brushful of kerosene, rinse, dry, replace in order - easy when the wire loop holds all in the original sequence. It literally takes one minute.

Every 100km - yes well that sounds like obsessive cleaning. Most of my rides are about that length, so I tend to clean before every ride. 200km sees too much grit accumulate for my liking. When you use a wet lube and keep the chain relatively clean by degreasing often, the shake rinse and dry takes only a few minutes.

 

[ultimobici]

The torque setting is there for a reason - to prevent the sprockets from squirming on the splines, possibly damaging them. But I think 30-40Nm is on the tight side. As I said, I have observed the symptoms of loose sprockets. At 10Nm or so, those effects are nonexistent.

Vibration from the road? More like vibration from the running of the chain on the sprockets. And the whole point of the serrations in the first place is that the locknut does not come undone on its own.

About cleaning - yes flossing is a quick option. But believe me, removal is quick. Hold a wire ready, slide the sprockets onto it, tie into a loop. Wipe with a brushful of kerosene, rinse, dry, replace in order - easy when the wire loop holds all in the original sequence. It literally takes one minute.

Every 100km - yes well that sounds like obsessive cleaning. Most of my rides are about that length, so I tend to clean before every ride. 200km sees too much grit accumulate for my liking. When you use a wet lube and keep the chain relatively clean by degreasing often, the shake rinse and dry takes only a few minutes.

If you are getting that much grit accumulating on the chain in only 100km you must either be riding on Strada Bianca type roads or over-lubricating the chain. The fact that you clean it every 100km makes wet lube redundant as it probably never encounters the conditions it is designed for.

This is what my cassette looks like after nearly 1000kms. Clean as a whistle despite not being off the wheels at all in that time. The chain has just been washed with the rest of the bike and is lubed using FL Krytech wax. One thing I do do is to never lube the chain unless it has been washed first.

 

[AlexRandall]

Every 100km - yes well that sounds like obsessive cleaning. Most of my rides are about that length, so I tend to clean before every ride. 200km sees too much grit accumulate for my liking.

You have too much lube on then - You should put on 1 drop per link roller, and once the chain has been fully lubed and rotated through a few full rotations the excess should be thoroughly cleaned off. If this means your chain is dry one ride later, then buy better lube.

 

[Pieter]

Quote : " The fact that you clean it every 100km makes wet lube redundant as it probably never encounters the conditions it is designed for."

What do you mean? Wet lube designed for wet conditions? To me, the term 'wet lube' refers to wet oil which stays wet (as opposed to dry wax with solvents which evaporate).


Quote "One thing I do do is to never lube the chain unless it has been washed first.
" : very good point and I agree totally. Washing grit into a dirty chain during lubing does no good at all.


Quote "You have too much lube on then - You should put on 1 drop per link roller"
That is what I do, but I rarely wipe afterwards. What is the point? As long as the chain is not so over-lubed as to spray the rims, braking surfaces, etc.

If excess lube settles elsewhere (chain side plates for example) and attracts dirt, the dirt won't do a thing as it is not on a bearing surface. Dirt on gear teeth and rollers, yes. But those are the very components which require lube.

One drop per roller of a good penetrating lube should go 'in' all the way and leave very little to wipe.

 

[ultimobici]

Quote : " The fact that you clean it every 100km makes wet lube redundant as it probably never encounters the conditions it is designed for."

What do you mean? Wet lube designed for wet conditions? To me, the term 'wet lube' refers to wet oil which stays wet (as opposed to dry wax with solvents which evaporate).


Quote "One thing I do do is to never lube the chain unless it has been washed first.
" : very good point and I agree totally. Washing grit into a dirty chain during lubing does no good at all.

I live in the UK, so I regularly ride in wet conditions. However most wet lubes are aimed at winter wet conditions and are sticky to prevent them being washed off over a longer period than 100km. The down side is that they attract every bit of crap around. Dry lubes are less resistant to being washed off but being dry they attract less dirt etc. Paraffin wax chain lubes give you the best of both worlds. They have the clean running of the dry lube due to the wax form, but they also have the tenacity of the wet lube that resists being washed off.
That the lube evaporates that quickly is not the reality in my experience at all. I have spent the last 17 years in various LBS's, as well as riding for 25 years plus, and now ride up to 80km a day for work (no I am not despatch riding!). I have never needed to resort to wet lube despite riding in all weathers. The only "rule" I apply is the "Only lube a cleaned chain". Nary a squeak is heard from my chain at all!
Try it and you'll see it is just not necessary to degrease the chain & cassette that frequently at all.