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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
^do your homework
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
yea well before we learned how to farm we all ate a keto/paleo diet.

and humans had enough energy to run from the dinosaurs so there is that :)
 

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yea well before we learned how to farm we all ate a keto/paleo diet.

and humans had enough energy to run from the dinosaurs so there is that
You're not making sense. Human performance has improved significantly in the past 100 years through improved training and nutrition. Your claim essentially is that humans performed better 10,000 years ago. In direct conflict of what we have learned but if it makes you happy, go for it.
 

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The things I've read over the years seem to indicate keto or any seriously carbohydrate-restricted diet is going to eat into your peak power, so not great if all-round performance is a key requirement, such as for a competitor in a road race.

For triathletes, and anyone more interested in steady-state performance (e.g. centuries), looks like it could be great, reducing the reliance on carbohydrate storage and increasing fat usage, so decreasing the chance to hit the wall.

If in need to shed weight, which theoretically equates to free VO2max, among other benefits, like possibly improved power to weight ratio, diet can be periodized (the diet itself can be organized cyclically, using refeeds)

Also note there is no need to go keto unless the aim is to shed a lot of fat quickly (reason for which it is used by body builders), or suffering from diabetes.

Low carb is roughly defined as anything in the range of 50-120 grams of carbs per day, which is not hard to achieve. Staying closer to the upper limit is recommended if you're new to it, although the required intake may be different depending on the individual (a heavier person will require more energy than a thinner person, and there's a number of other factors)

Finally, how little carbohydrates can you get away with, without significant performance impairment, also depends on the total volume of work being performed. You'll also have to go through an adaptation period, the more reason for approaching things gradually rather than jump straight into ketogenic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Kerry I never said that humans performed better I was just stating that for 100's-k years carbs weren't important to the diet.

Good post oct3. and I am experimenting with keto to loose weight 5lbs. lost in three weeks as I have just started. And I do ride more distance I don't like racing. From my research keto can work but if you need quick energy for racing, carbs / sugars are it I guess. I've read that people on keto when racing and using carbs really get a boost.
 

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I've seen research on elite athletes suggesting that nutrient timing manipulation simulating a low carb diet (i.e. the diet is high carb but the carbs are not fed during the protein synthesis window as one would ordinarily do) may have positive effects on the respiratory factor which is basically the carb to fat mixture burnt in the metabolic engine. IOW the body 'learns' to burn more fats at any power level, sparing glycogen and approximating the results of a low carb diet without the negative performance effects (actually, improving performance)

OTOH if going full keto (under 50 grams/day for most), for any extended amount of time, there may be down-regulation of digestive enzymes, making consumption of generous amounts of carbs, less ...trouble-free, than when used to consume higher quantities.

Cyclical (hybrid, basically) keto diets may also be useful to prevent that type of adaptation.

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
^what do you mean "making consumption of generous amounts of carbs, less ...trouble-free,"
 

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^what do you mean "making consumption of generous amounts of carbs, less ...trouble-free,"
Think of it like lactose intolerance, possibly not as bad; many (most?) people who go a long time without drinking milk, find themselves sensitive to it when they resume consumption; the actual symptoms may vary depending on the individual, the specifics, and the quantity, and cover a range, from bloating, gas, or discomfort, to pain and diarrhea.

This is because our digestive systems use enzymes to break down nutrients in a form that can be absorbed.

We produce a number of different enzymes which, not unlike muscles, become "untrained" if used little or not at all.

This is particularly easy to observe if you use something like potatoes as your carb source - despite some disagreement, they're generally considered 'mostly OK' in the paleo scene as one, as opposed to grains (outside of buckwheat, amaranth, and so on, which are grasses not true grains) which are usually recommended against because of their inflammatory effects.

However, potatoes contain inulin, a prebiotic fiber, which can further compound the problem. Another element pertains to the content of a class of toxic substances which potatoes used in the wild as defense from animals that feed on them (potatoes are a nightshade like aubergines and tomatoes).

Through crop selection, the content of these substances has been reduced to minimal levels, however, some people are more sensitive to them than others, and the content isn't the same for all varieties; moreover, it can be increased through the natural process of sprouting, which is why one should discard the green parts of potatoes.

The effects have been reported to appear as anything from joint pain (which can be misattributed) to full-blown gastrointestinal disorders (in the worst cases).
 

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yea well before we learned how to farm we all ate a keto/paleo diet. ...
I think that's a pop myth. National Geographic magazine periodically profiles "modern" hunter-gatherer societies, eg tribes in the Amazon. It's clear that getting animal protein is a special treat for them. Successful animal kills are rare. Much of their diet is plant-based carbs, as it is for modern kenyan distance runners.

One modern exception are the far-northern indigenous peoples, whose diet can be predominantly seals -- an extremely fatty animal. You don't see any Inuit tribespeople among elite distance runners ;-)
 

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BTW, here's a 2015 research paper: a review of high fat / ketogenic diets:

https://dx.doi.org/10.1007%<wbr>2Fs40279-015-0393-9
Re-Examining High-Fat Diets for Sports Performance, Did We Call the ‘Nail in the Coffin’ Too Soon - Burke 2015

After a quick read, it seemed to me :
- no evidence that a High Fat Low Carb (HFLC) ever achieves same performance as High Carb Low Fat (HCLF) at higher intensities.
- much evidence that HFLC is inferior to HCLF for high intensities.
- carefully periodized nutrition which includes HFLC & HCLF may be beneficial but needs more study.

There's a lot of random blogs, opinions, testimonials, and N=1 claims, which are rarely (if ever) based on hard data and properly designed experimentation with human endurance athletes.
Testimonials Evidence
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well after 4 weeks of keto or trying to do keto I am having second thoughts. I am a little lazy in the macro-nutrient tracking thing. So I don't have any data to pass on but I met my macros and kept my carbs to 20gr a day.

What I found is that I had no energy on the bike, the flats were ok but I died on the hills. This maybe attributed to the "keto flu" or the time when your body is transitioning from a carb energy source to a fat energy force I don't know or maybe I just wasn't consuming enough calories over all. From what I have read to transition into full keto could take 1 to 4 months and I just don't have time for that.

I believe that both sides of the keto debate have solid arguments to affirm their position. There are many stories of athletes using keto and performing well though they will admit that their anaerobic high intensity output is compromised some. Dave Scott the triathlete uses keto.

But the bottom line for me is that there is not enough benefit for such a drastic lifestyle change. I will try a hybrid keto plan kind of along the lines of what Team Sky is doing. They limit carbs when they can but use carbs on the bike. It is a little easier for the team members because they have a chef and a nutritionist to do the thinking for their diet.

But there is something to this keto thing the science is there to confirm the advantages. We have not heard the last of this debate by a long shot and I predict that some pro teams will be using some form of a keto nutritional program.

TL/DNR: To much trouble, I missed eating carbs
 

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I think that's a pop myth. National Geographic magazine periodically profiles "modern" hunter-gatherer societies, eg tribes in the Amazon. It's clear that getting animal protein is a special treat for them. Successful animal kills are rare. Much of their diet is plant-based carbs, as it is for modern kenyan distance runners.

One modern exception are the far-northern indigenous peoples, whose diet can be predominantly seals -- an extremely fatty animal. You don't see any Inuit tribespeople among elite distance runners ;-)
Firstly, to start off, Eskimos have certain adaptations such as enlarged liver and enlarged kidneys to help them cope with the large amount of meat and fat they eat. If you do not have these adaptations, then you can forget about eating like an Eskimos and expect to stay alive long.

Secondly, because Eskimos eat their meat raw, their populations have an endemic infestation of parasites, and, in a twist of fate, these parasites actually keep them sick most of the time and thus lowering their cholesterol levels than they otherwise would be. That is to say, if their meat were cooked and cleaned of parasites, their cholesterol would be higher. However, there are complications that come with eating parasite infected meat.

Thirdly, Eskimos were never found to be in ketosis. In fact, no human population has ever been documented to be in ketosis.

Keep in mind that the Eskimos I'm referring to were from the 1950s at the latest. Today, Eskimos do not live live their ancestors anymore. Today, Eskimos hunt by using guns, boat, and airplanes. Today's Eskimos suffer from the same metabolic disease that the modern Western Paleo city slickers do.
 

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Well after 4 weeks of keto or trying to do keto I am having second thoughts. I am a little lazy in the macro-nutrient tracking thing. So I don't have any data to pass on but I met my macros and kept my carbs to 20gr a day.

What I found is that I had no energy on the bike, the flats were ok but I died on the hills. This maybe attributed to the "keto flu" or the time when your body is transitioning from a carb energy source to a fat energy force I don't know or maybe I just wasn't consuming enough calories over all. From what I have read to transition into full keto could take 1 to 4 months and I just don't have time for that.

I believe that both sides of the keto debate have solid arguments to affirm their position. There are many stories of athletes using keto and performing well though they will admit that their anaerobic high intensity output is compromised some. Dave Scott the triathlete uses keto.

But the bottom line for me is that there is not enough benefit for such a drastic lifestyle change. I will try a hybrid keto plan kind of along the lines of what Team Sky is doing. They limit carbs when they can but use carbs on the bike. It is a little easier for the team members because they have a chef and a nutritionist to do the thinking for their diet.

But there is something to this keto thing the science is there to confirm the advantages. We have not heard the last of this debate by a long shot and I predict that some pro teams will be using some form of a keto nutritional program.

TL/DNR: To much trouble, I missed eating carbs
dude, good that you gave it up. Forget the ketogenic diet, their research and studies are mostly funded by the meat and dairy industry. The government no longer fund such diet studies because these studies have been done so much in the past (shame that most of us are conditioned to think that past studies are worthless studies) that the results are unequivocal: a high carb (not to be confused with process sugar), high fiber diet, is the way to do.

Now about this "keto flu". Low carbers like to make some bs name such as "keto flu" when this "flu" is the feeling of your body being sick! If our body is so well designed to live on a keto diet (according to all the keto experts on in the internet blogosphere), they why does the body need time to adapt to a diet that it was designed to thrive on? Does a fish need time to adapt to living in water? The logic of something that was designed to live in an environment needing time to adap to live in that same environment,,.. is as backward as it can get. No, you have the keto flu is because your body is feeling sick, not because your body is adapting to something.

But speaking of adaptation, well we have this thing call glycolysis pathway. It's basically a pathway of metabolizing energy anaerobically, you know, for that monent you need to run from sabertooth or attack a hill. We have evolved to have glycolysis work in conjunction with fat oxidation, and now you want to cut off glycolysis by cutting off almost all carbs? Does this make sense to you from an evolutionary point of viet, at all??

And about Team Sky, well what they do is "train low" and race high. Training low is training with limited amount of carb at a steady and lower intensity, forcing their body to rely on fat metabolism. This is nothing new, it's well documented. But make no mistake, nobody on Sky is eating a keto diet. In fact, given how the pro cycling world is obsessed with diet and science of marginal gains, you can rest assured that if a true keto diet is all that, then we would be hearing all the cyclists be talking and eating it. Not the case at all eh. Instead pro cyclists suck on gel's and gu's like crazy.
 
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