Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
741 - 760 of 799 Posts

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,268 Posts
The whole mad queen thing seems lazy...
They were laying the groundwork for that for a while. It was rushed at the end, as so much of this season has been. But burning the Tarleys seems to fit, and the building paranoia in the acting (reaction shots not just the lines) was pretty clear indication of what they had going on this season. It also fits well with the book based world building, the history of her house.

Character wise, given past abuse (think of her brother and how he treated her for example) seeking power is a typical response, as is attacking those who thwart the seeking of power. She seemed to get less nice when her plans and views of her future were resisted or got derailed, even temporarily. I mean, she is super pissed her nephew doesn't want to bone anymore, as if that reaction is not a reasonable one. She is the center of her universe, and all must bend to that or face her wrath.

She seems to have become what her brother was, or would have been with the power of dragons at least.

I wonder how many children were named Daenerys, and what those parents think of the name now?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
What I always found interesting was that despite her family History she was going against what everyone's expectations were of a Targaryen. To have her just repeat and become what she was trying to avoid in the end seems lame. I was never particularly a fan of her character (huge fan of the dragons though), and Jon has always been my favorite but it feels like they did her wrong. Just my opinion of course.
 

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,268 Posts
What I always found interesting was that despite her family History she was going against what everyone's expectations were of a Targaryen.
https://www.salon.com/2019/05/13/ga...-her-kings-landing-turn-was-very-much-earned/

A good counterpoint, which says in part that those who saw her as going against the expectations (viewers and characters in the story) were ignoring some counter evidence.



Just my opinion of course.
That's what really matters, whether the fiction worked for you or not. I saw it as more consistent with previous things than you did. Not that I thought it GOOD mind you, just that it could be seen as consistent with a lot that went before.
 

·
Proud luddite
Joined
·
7,221 Posts
Last week there was a Starbucks cup. This week...

Jamie grew his hand back.

Nah...he's taken off the metal hand before. He did that for his final scene, opting to wear the "So Lifelike It Makes You Want to Kiss Your Sister" prosthesis.
 

·
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Joined
·
8,140 Posts
Nah...he's taken off the metal hand before. He did that for his final scene, opting to wear the "So Lifelike It Makes You Want to Kiss Your Sister" prosthesis.
...Does his sister prefer fleshy, articulate digits?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
Jamie is really good at internal bleeding-he should have been pimp slapping Euron a lot more with his metal hand.
During that fight I kept asking my wife, why Jaime wasn't hitting Euron with his metal hand.

I've seen the following meme:
Green Yellow Colorfulness Line Pattern

Season 1: Dany burns Mirri Maz Duur
She had taken her husband and unborn child from her, so mostly justified.
Season 2: Dany burns the House of the Undying
They were attempting to drain her life, seems justified, self defense and all.
Season 3: Dany burns Astapor
She ended slavery.
Season 4: Dany crucifies the Masters of Meereen
She crucified slave masters, cruel and unusual sure but not necessarily crazy or evil. These slavers had also crucified countless slave children and left them on the road to the city for Dany to walk through.
Season 5: Dany burns Meerenise noblemen
Not sure what this is referencing but again, the Meereenise were slavers
Season 6: Dany burns Vaes Dothrak
They wanted to send her to live with the widows and were slavers in their own way. Given the situation I wouldn't consider this all that crazy or mad.
Season 7: Dany burns the wagon train
The wagon train itself was a military target of a military campaign. The Tarleys were given the opportunity to bend the knee but chose not to. Not her greatest moment for sure but if she just let them go they would return to fight her again, and holding them prisoner might have not been convenient despite it probably being the most reasonable option at the time.
Season 8: Dany burns Kings Landing
This would be be the first time she did anything I could consider full mad/crazy, and yes they have been moving towards this since the beginning of the season with the forced conflict between her and jon and the killing of her dragon and friends but it still felt out of character for her.

And again, why burn the city after it had surrendered and not just go straight for Cersei? Just seemed lazy as a whole just so they could have more cool looking dragonfire?
 

·
Registered
Escorted from the White House
Joined
·
36,854 Posts
Discussion Starter · #749 ·
Nah...he's taken off the metal hand before. He did that for his final scene, opting to wear the "So Lifelike It Makes You Want to Kiss Your Sister" prosthesis.
'As seen in Kentucky and Arkansas'.
.
 

·
Devoid of all flim-flam
Joined
·
7,277 Posts
I enjoyed/admired the episode (or was it two episodes?) that consisted of just one long night battle, but all in all the show seems to have run out of gas. Danaerys (how the hell do you spell her name?) has become as one-note as those frozen bad guys...only without the energy. Tyrion has been reduced to a forlorn, self-pitying drunk. Somebody spike his hooch with Valium! Or, better still, a mood enhancer that focuses on a more southerly portion of the body? The only characters I now like are Arya and the wonderfully implacable King of the Frozen Dead. Despite my admiration for the big battle scene, I'm sick of the cold weather. Why can't the show get back to the "Fire" locale?"
 

·
Registered
Escorted from the White House
Joined
·
36,854 Posts
Discussion Starter · #751 ·
SPOILERS BELOW (of course).

I actually liked this episode better than anything else this season. No, really.

Yes, the execution still sucks and is very, pretty much criminally, rushed. Yes, there is still a high random stupidity quotient, best exemplified by the 'OMG, they're so deadly!... oh wait, now they just totally suck all of a sudden!' ballista/scorpions. Oh, and Euron JUST HAPPENING to show up at the backdoor of the Red Keep at the exact same time as Jaimie. Derp.

But, if one can look past the muddled mess that the showrunners are dishing up, and see what GRRM meant to do... wow. The Mad Queen turn is pretty great, and really ballsy.

It'd be like Frodo taking the One Ring, turning evil, and conquering Middle Earth for himself. Yes, he did kinda try to keep the Ring for himself at Mount Doom, but he never Holocausted a town of one million inhabitants, as Daenerys did. This is another level. :eek:

AND YES, OF COURSE, a lot of ppl will say this sucks, because, well, in the show, it kinda does. Despite the occasional hint-dropping, the Mad Queen turn feels unearned, because it is.

Because it always was going to be, with the show this hyper-accelerated in Seasons 7 and 8, and with the execution being this poor and muddled. But you can see GRRM's outline here, and it's pretty magnificent. Who else would even DO this? Amazing.

And polarizing, in much the same way as the Red Wedding episode was several seasons back. But great, challenging storytelling... albeit in this case, through the very imperfect canvas of the showrunners. But one thing they got right was focusing so much on the devastation that Daenerys caused to 'the little people'. This was basically GoT's '9/11' episode, if you follow, and Arya was the perfect witness to really bring that home.

So then this all sets up a possibly fascinating series finale. You have to say 'possibly', because showrunners/writers Benioff and Weiss are fumbling and stumbling about with the ball, and may not be able to bring it on home. But it's brilliant as set up by GRRM, anyway.

What DO you do, really, with someone like Daenerys, someone who's finally revealed herself to be a true tyrant despite all her good intentions, and literally DID just 'Burn them all!' in a way that her father, the Mad King, only dreamt of doing? What does Jon do to his Queen, Aunt, and former lover? What does Tyrion do? Sansa? Arya? Do you fall in line, negotiate, walk away, or try to kill her? What's right? What serves the kingdom? Your own feelings/needs? Is she 'the tyrant Westeros needs', or a cancer that must be cut out? What is the nature of power?

In other things... liked, but did not love the 'Cleganebowl'. It looked 'beautifully apocalyptic' with the fire and destruction all around (like two titans fighting in hell itself), but it wasn't necessarily fight-choreographed all that well... it had the cliche'd much-stronger-guy-throwing-the-other-guy around thing going on. But Sandor's reactions and dialogue were perfect... "Yeahhh... that's you. That's who you've always been."

And what other way could it possibly end, but both of them falling into fire?

Did not really like the Euron-Jaimie fight. Euron, as portrayed in the show, has always been a stupid character, and worse, a deus ex machina for the some of the show's worst moments/execution down the home stretch. Would've been nice to see Jaimie beat him to death with his metal hand, while shouting, "BAD WRITING! BAD WRITING!!!" :lol:

Cersei's death, though... yes, it worked. Some won't agree, wishing that Arya or Sandor or even Jaimie had done her in painfully, but, no. That's too easy and un-GRRM-like, the big bad villainess twirling her golden hair and dying with a snarl on her evil resting b!tch face.

The way it was done, with Jaimie being so obviously still in love with her, and she crying as she finally realizes the full, disastrous weight of her folly, knowing that she's going to die, that Jaimie's going to die, and that her unborn child is going to die... that just works. It's not what you wanted, it's not what you expected, but it works. And the Red Keep, her seat of power, folding in on her, killing her and everything she still loves, the only things she still loves... perfect. It really is. Even though, yes, Cersei is still that very same monster who butchered Missandei just an episode pervious.

It's the '9/11' episode of GoT, it's the biggest complete heel turn of a central character in any fantasy series I can recall, it was NOT well set-up at all by the showrunners (and I really hope that the karma from this and their piss-poor Seasons 7-8 comes back to bite them in the ass on their next project, Confederate)... and it still worked. That's how good GRRM's storytelling/broad-outline is. Even in the hands of these clods. :(

Write the books, GRRM. Show us how it REALLY should've gone. But, nice job anyway.
.
 

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,268 Posts
But, if one can look past the muddled mess that the showrunners are dishing up, and see what GRRM meant to do... wow.
If you look past the burnt bits, and the raw bits, and the overseasoned bits, and the underseasoned bits to what the chef MEANT to do...

Still tastes bad.

Cersei's death, though... yes, it worked. Some won't agree, wishing that Arya or Sandor or even Jaimie had done her in painfully, but, no. That's too easy and un-GRRM-like, the big bad villainess twirling her golden hair and dying with a snarl on her evil resting b!tch face.

The way it was done, with Jaimie being so obviously still in love with her, ...
I don't object to her death so much as the complete invalidation of Jaime's character arc.

The acting was good though, I think the actors in large part did a GREAT job with what they were handed, throughout the episode. They were just handed thin gruel to work with.

So then this all sets up a possibly fascinating series finale. You have to say 'possibly', because showrunners/writers Benioff and Weiss are fumbling and stumbling about with the ball, and may not be able to bring it on home.
Lots of things are possible. I'd bet based on the track record, not hopes or possibilities. And the track record since leaving the books behind has been going downhill steadily. I give a 5 for the burning of KL episode. Competent, but nothing special. A waste of SO MUCH that has gone before. What I would think if that was all I saw of the show, or if it were the core of a single film... standard thinly sketched character fantasy crap.

Thin, like butter scraped over too much bread.

But if there were just more butter, as the chef intended, it would have been tasty.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
I don't object to her death so much as the complete invalidation of Jaime's character arc.
Finger Thumb Animation Animated cartoon Cartoon

Yes, the invalidation of his arc was my biggest issue with it as well. They should have let Tormund get the giant of Tarth instead of Jaime if they were going to end it like that. Also death by construction was lame. I feel the fans deserved better after wanting to see her die miserably for 8 seasons. It should have been more Joffrei and less Melisandre.

It wasn't all bad, I loved seeing the dragon destruction in the episode even if I didn't agree with the characters motivation for doing it. The dragons are one of the highlights of the show (lots of credit to the sfx and the sound fx people involved). I liked how they showed it from the town's people's and Arya's perspective as well.

Nose Mouth Lip Cheek Microphone

Human Wood Hardwood Iron Insect

Face Head Nose Mouth Cheek
 

·
Registered
Escorted from the White House
Joined
·
36,854 Posts
Discussion Starter · #754 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
This is genius. 'Cuz it's so very, very, VERY true. :(
.
Not that I have high expectations for anything star wars after Riordan took a huge dump on the Last Jedi but I'll probably have to lower those expectations for these guys' star wars project after seeing what they have done with GOT over last couple seasons (without GRRM's books to go off of). I grew to despise GRRM's writing style as the books go went on but even with the tail end being more feast descriptions than plot he still had a better mind for it than these guys.
 

·
gazing from the shadows
Joined
·
27,268 Posts
This would be be the first time she did anything I could consider full mad/crazy, and yes they have been moving towards this since the beginning of the season with the forced conflict between her and jon and the killing of her dragon and friends but it still felt out of character for her.

And again, why burn the city after it had surrendered and not just go straight for Cersei? Just seemed lazy as a whole just so they could have more cool looking dragonfire?
Well, the show runners have said she lost it and went off, so there's that.

But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.

The North is ripe for rebellion, which would be troublesome for a new Queen to say the least. Especially since they won't have the wall and what is on the other side to keep them busy up there.

There's only one dragon left, so Jon doesn't have one to ride anymore.

By showing the sheer POWER OF Drogon, she gives everyone something to fear. Every, single, person no matter what station they hold.

When she sits on the throne, only that fear will let her keep it. Nobles will fear her taking everything they hold before someone gets her, freezing them from making a move.

This read makes her actions far more strategically sensible and rational. This would explain the terror tactics as opposed to going right for the Red Keep for a decapitating strike. Coldly rational, in the only way forward to take and hold power she sees, given other paths seem likely to lead to failure sooner rather than later.

As I said, that is not the explicit show narrative, but it is one that fits the situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,533 Posts
But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.
Daenerys going full on Mad Queen was awesome, and inevitable. Best part of the show/season. And makes complete sense. I just think how they got there was pretty lame and lazy.


Allowing the army and citizens of Kings Landing to live was bad strategy. Jon has the claim to the throne. The people of Kings Landing and the 7 kingdoms would support him over her. But now the only viable army left is Danny's. And she has a dragon. There's no way to take the throne militarily. The only move left is a knife in the back.
 

·
Opus was just napping
Joined
·
21,587 Posts
Well, the show runners have said she lost it and went off, so there's that.

But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.

The North is ripe for rebellion, which would be troublesome for a new Queen to say the least. Especially since they won't have the wall and what is on the other side to keep them busy up there.

There's only one dragon left, so Jon doesn't have one to ride anymore.

By showing the sheer POWER OF Drogon, she gives everyone something to fear. Every, single, person no matter what station they hold.

When she sits on the throne, only that fear will let her keep it. Nobles will fear her taking everything they hold before someone gets her, freezing them from making a move.

This read makes her actions far more strategically sensible and rational. This would explain the terror tactics as opposed to going right for the Red Keep for a decapitating strike. Coldly rational, in the only way forward to take and hold power she sees, given other paths seem likely to lead to failure sooner rather than later.

As I said, that is not the explicit show narrative, but it is one that fits the situation.
In light of their next gig in the Star Wars Universe....Drogon as Death Star.

General Tagge: That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
Grand Moff Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
I would have felt it more appropriate and in character for her had they depicted it as based on the tactics/reality of the situation more than the raging mad reasoning that they went with in the episode. But who knows maybe that was intentional to try and throw us off. We might find out next episode I guess. I say "might" because they has been way too many things that seemed to deserve an explanation from this season alone that they have completely ignored so far (Bran worging the flock of crows etc).

Maybe she will try to have her dragon burn Jon only to have him not burn, while that would be cool they have seemed to be intentionally avoiding cool this season so probably unlikely to happen.
 
741 - 760 of 799 Posts
Top