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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just a quick question, wonder if somebody else had the problem...

would love to give tubeless a try, but if i do not feeling comfortable with it, how easy is it to use the wheelset again with normal tubes? Is it easy to get the milk out of the rim?
 

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Just a quick question, wonder if somebody else had the problem...

would love to give tubeless a try, but if i do not feeling comfortable with it, how easy is it to use the wheelset again with normal tubes? Is it easy to get the milk out of the rim?
ehhhh, one question at a time.

1) what are you looking for in tubeless that you can't get in a regular tire/wheel setup? Nowadays, you can a good wheelset with wide rims (eg, HED Belgium+ 25mm) and run them with quality tires with thin butyle inner tubes.... it will beat any tubeless combination. So if the reason is "tubeless rolls better, rides better"... is false.

2) Regular clincher tires have far greater choices,.. AND... they're on sale far more often. Cost will be in favor of regular clincher tires

3) Wear factor. Once a tubeless tire has worn down to about 1/2 or even 1/3 its thread life, it will have less rubber, and thus, it will be less likely to seal a puncture. So in reality, a tubeless tire is worth only about half its tread life. Sure you can continue to ride on, but now statistics are not on your side.

4) with tubeless setup, you'd still need to carry a spare tube and CO2.

5) and once you do get a puncture that doesn't seal, oh boy, have fun on the road with the milky stuff. The sealant will spray all over your frame and wheel, then you end up wiping that sh*t off. Mounting a tubeless tire on the road is not easy either (maybe today's tubeless tires are easier to mount, but they can't be any easier than a regular clincher).

6) as for getting the milk out of the rim. This will highly depend on the sealant. If you the white milky Stans stuff, it's hard. It's hard because the latex dries out into balls of goopy rubber on your inner rim. Then you have to scrap that sh*t out. And.. in my case, the Stans sealant corrode my Dura Ace C24 aluminum rims. I ended up having to lightly sand away the corrosion on my rims. Other sealants that use less latex is a bit easier to remove, but with less latex, you'd also run the chance of your puncture not being able to seal in the event of a flat too. Some sealants don't use latex, they use ethylene glycol (same stuff as car antifreeze) with micro fibrous strands, and while this will seal well and it will not goop up inside your rim... but... the fibrous strands also tend to clog up your air valve too... so now you have to keep clearing your air valve... sometimes your valve will not clear up so easily.

Tubeless makes a lot of sense in the mtb world, but on the road, I'll take a good regular clincher setup using wide rims and quality tires... ANYDAY
 

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Just a quick question, wonder if somebody else had the problem...

would love to give tubeless a try, but if i do not feeling comfortable with it, how easy is it to use the wheelset again with normal tubes? Is it easy to get the milk out of the rim?
It's not a big deal to switch back and forth, don't worry about it.
 

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Adorable Furry Hombre
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ehhhh, one question at a time.

1) what are you looking for in tubeless that you can't get in a regular tire/wheel setup? Nowadays, you can a good wheelset with wide rims (eg, HED Belgium+ 25mm) and run them with quality tires with thin butyle inner tubes.... it will beat any tubeless combination. So if the reason is "tubeless rolls better, rides better"... is false.

2) Regular clincher tires have far greater choices,.. AND... they're on sale far more often. Cost will be in favor of regular clincher tires

3) Wear factor. Once a tubeless tire has worn down to about 1/2 or even 1/3 its thread life, it will have less rubber, and thus, it will be less likely to seal a puncture. So in reality, a tubeless tire is worth only about half its tread life. Sure you can continue to ride on, but now statistics are not on your side.

4) with tubeless setup, you'd still need to carry a spare tube and CO2.

5) and once you do get a puncture that doesn't seal, oh boy, have fun on the road with the milky stuff. The sealant will spray all over your frame and wheel, then you end up wiping that sh*t off. Mounting a tubeless tire on the road is not easy either (maybe today's tubeless tires are easier to mount, but they can't be any easier than a regular clincher).

6) as for getting the milk out of the rim. This will highly depend on the sealant. If you the white milky Stans stuff, it's hard. It's hard because the latex dries out into balls of goopy rubber on your inner rim. Then you have to scrap that sh*t out. And.. in my case, the Stans sealant corrode my Dura Ace C24 aluminum rims. I ended up having to lightly sand away the corrosion on my rims. Other sealants that use less latex is a bit easier to remove, but with less latex, you'd also run the chance of your puncture not being able to seal in the event of a flat too. Some sealants don't use latex, they use ethylene glycol (same stuff as car antifreeze) with micro fibrous strands, and while this will seal well and it will not goop up inside your rim... but... the fibrous strands also tend to clog up your air valve too... so now you have to keep clearing your air valve... sometimes your valve will not clear up so easily.

Tubeless makes a lot of sense in the mtb world, but on the road, I'll take a good regular clincher setup using wide rims and quality tires... ANYDAY
Just a side note...tubeless sealant and CO2 don't get along....you'll freeze the liquid sealant into stringy goobers in your wheel...leaving you with a wheel that seals even less.


Otherwise...yea. Everything you just said.
 

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Wow, there is a lot of hyperbole being thrown around here. :)

Switching back and forth is easy.

But tubeless might work great for your needs. I had a horrible first experience with Hutchinson garbage tires, and swore off road tubeless as a waste of time. But now I use 28mm tubeless Schwalbe Pro One on my commuter (and for some reason 23mm on my road bike). The ride is great (feels at least as good as GP4000SII w/ latex tubes, but the tests suggest they are probably a bit slower), but the sealing flats is greater. 3500 miles on a rear tire now (it is almost done), so life is better than I was getting out of faster tube-tire rubber. It has sealed several holes that would have required tube changes. Honestly, the only reason I am still riding that tire is because it is tubeless and I know the next piece of rock that works through the now-thin casing will be sealed by sealant -- or tire plugs. I haven't had to put a tube on my commuter for over a year, and that is deapite getting several punctures (that sealed with sealant).

I agree that you can get a really nice set of rolling tubed tires, though. So I am not trying to claim that the ride is better. But when you factor in latex tubes, street prices on tubeless are better.

Also I find tubeless is great for 28mm and a little less great for 23mm. (regular) Stans sealant doesn't like to seal even small punctures above 60-80psi in my experience. I have a hole in my rear tire that tends to blow out the sealant at some point in my ride. I haven't bothered to plug it, sice in practice it is fine. I just notice some sealant on my seat tube and the pressure is a little soft but it reseals just fine. Not sure why anyone rides 23s, though, and once these tires are done I will be done with 23s too.

The idea that having a non-sealing flat will be covering you and your bike in latex sealant is pretty exaggerated. The nice thing about the sealant leaking out in that scenario is you know exactly where the problem in the tire is. If you do have to put in a tube you for have to futz around looking for why the tire flatted. But the little tire plugs from Genuine Innovations work great for fixing holes too big for sealant. No need to remove the tire (or wheel).

But the quick answer is that going back and forth is as easy as just taking out or putting in a tube. You could use a rag or paper towel to wipe out the inside of the tire if you cared.

But with good tires, I suspect you won't ever go back to tubes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks to all of you for your input!

Just because the question came up why to do so.

As simple as is sounds, curiosity. And if the handling would be this hard, i think i would leave everything as it it, but perhaps i will give it a try...

Thanks again
 

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Tubeless users 'go back' every time they get a flat on the road. There may be reasons tubeless doesn't make sense for you but losing the ability to use tubes definitely isn't one of them.
 

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Bianchi-Campagnolo
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Tubeless users 'go back' every time they get a flat on the road.
Hmmm. I have 10000 km on tubeless tires by now. Still haven't had to put a tube in.
 

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Bianchi-Campagnolo
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Might be that it is a stupid idea, but sometimes this kind of things have to be done.
For some reason there are tons of tubeless haters here. :confused: I've used TL on and off for several years...I rarely flat so the biggest draws for me are ride quality and the fact that I like tinkering. I can take it or leave it but don't see anything about it worthy of hate. Here are my experiences...

I have one bike with a 25mm in the rear and another bike, that I prefer position-wise, but couldn't fit 25's, only 23's.
My fix was to run a TL 23 in the rear and give it a more supple ride, like the one with the 25 on it. I can run about 6-8 lower psi on the TL 23 than a tubed 23 without a squishy/slowish feeling from the back.

Going back 6 or 7 years (maybe more?) I used the Stans conversion kit that came with two 1st gen Hutchinson TL tires, two valves, and rim tape to run tubeless on a non-tubeless rim (Bontrager Race X Lite) and rode that setup for more than 2k miles before moving the front to the back and putting a tubed tire in the front, for no other reason than I got a deal on some tubed clinchers, never flatted with that setup.

I have flatted on the rear with TL (Schwalbe Ultremo?) where the sealant couldn't seal and ended up having to fit in a tube road-side, time-wise was slightly more than tubed and the ride was awful, probably from the stiffer sidewalls in addition to the tube, but not what I would even call a pain.

A couple of weeks ago I was cleaning my bike and cleaned what I thought was some white paint from underneath the down-tube, turned out to be sealant. I then remembered my front tire air pressure was down about 20 psi during a pre-ride ritual about a week earlier and, upon closer inspection, found a tiny slice in the tire...had a flat and didn't even know it at the time. :)
 

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Banned Sock Puppet
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For some reason there are tons of tubeless haters here. :confused:

Hate is a very strong word. For me, I just don't think any advantages outweigh the hassles involved.
 

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I think that can be true on the road, but with the right setup the hassles are minimal.

- A tubeless-designed rim does help. Not required for road (high-pressure) tubeless, but if the tires fit loosely that will be very frustrating getting them to seat. If the tires are tight then not having the deep center channel will make mounting frustrating. Once the tire is seated, though, the rim design won't matter. I have had great luck with tubeless on Kinlin road rims, for example.

- Good tires really make the value proposition. I was really unimpressed with Hutchinson Fusion 3: wore fast, flatted constantly, and felt slow. Schwalbe Pro One are really nice in contrast. This setup feels at least as good as GP4000S with latex tubes (and has the advantages of sealing flats).
 

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See inline comments:

ehhhh, one question at a time.

1) what are you looking for in tubeless that you can't get in a regular tire/wheel setup? Nowadays, you can a good wheelset with wide rims (eg, HED Belgium+ 25mm) and run them with quality tires with thin butyle inner tubes.... it will beat any tubeless combination. So if the reason is "tubeless rolls better, rides better"... is false.

Not in most people's opinion. I'd say a good tubeless setup is as good as with a high quality clincher plus latex tubes.

2) Regular clincher tires have far greater choices,.. AND... they're on sale far more often. Cost will be in favor of regular clincher tires

For sure tubed clinchers offer far more choices, but do you really need dozens of tire choices? People usually find something that works and stick with it, and most of the tubeless offerings these days work pretty well to extremely well. Tubeless setups will be more expensive and bargain prices less frequent, but once you factor in the total cost of ownership (ie. buying high quality tubes for normal clinchers), the cost delta isn't that big for most people.

3) Wear factor. Once a tubeless tire has worn down to about 1/2 or even 1/3 its thread life, it will have less rubber, and thus, it will be less likely to seal a puncture. So in reality, a tubeless tire is worth only about half its tread life. Sure you can continue to ride on, but now statistics are not on your side.

I've been riding tubeless 25,000+ miles and typically ride my tires almost down to cords. I've never had a sealing issue with worn rubber as long as your diligent about keeping the sealant topped off.

4) with tubeless setup, you'd still need to carry a spare tube and CO2.

Personally I prefer a small hand pump to CO2. It's more versatile on the rare occasions it's needed.

5) and once you do get a puncture that doesn't seal, oh boy, have fun on the road with the milky stuff. The sealant will spray all over your frame and wheel, then you end up wiping that sh*t off. Mounting a tubeless tire on the road is not easy either (maybe today's tubeless tires are easier to mount, but they can't be any easier than a regular clincher).

Yes, the sealant sealing a puncture can get the frame pretty messy. However, if you clean it up quickly once you get home and before it dries really hard, cleaning it off is relatively easy and takes only a few minutes. As for the (hopefully very rare) road changes, simply carry a pair of nitrile gloves, paper towel and a sandwich bag in your pack to deal with any mess when changing tires. If the puncture didn't seal, there won't be much sealant left in the tire anyways.

6) as for getting the milk out of the rim. This will highly depend on the sealant. If you the white milky Stans stuff, it's hard. It's hard because the latex dries out into balls of goopy rubber on your inner rim. Then you have to scrap that sh*t out. And.. in my case, the Stans sealant corrode my Dura Ace C24 aluminum rims. I ended up having to lightly sand away the corrosion on my rims. Other sealants that use less latex is a bit easier to remove, but with less latex, you'd also run the chance of your puncture not being able to seal in the event of a flat too. Some sealants don't use latex, they use ethylene glycol (same stuff as car antifreeze) with micro fibrous strands, and while this will seal well and it will not goop up inside your rim... but... the fibrous strands also tend to clog up your air valve too... so now you have to keep clearing your air valve... sometimes your valve will not clear up so easily.

Stan's sealant is at best meh for road tubeless. There are better sealants which seal better/quicker, aren't corrosive (which I believe is a problem for very few wheelsets out there) and don't leave Stanimals in your tires. Buy valve stems with removable cores, and buy the valve core remover tool as well. When you add sealant to the tire, remove the core to do it. This will make adding the sealant much easier and will prevent the core from getting gummed up.

Tubeless makes a lot of sense in the mtb world, but on the road, I'll take a good regular clincher setup using wide rims and quality tires... ANYDAY
 
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