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Discussion Starter #1
If only all of my "problems" could be of this nature...

I'm in the market for a top-end frame to replace an existing one that just doesn't fit right anymore. Currently I have a Look 555 (that does fit) and a Calfee Tetra (that doesn't). I have nothing against CF (obviously) and am looking for a good all-around frame that will be suitable for serious recreational riding....

I've been looking around at what's available and have narrowed my choice down to two potential options.

1) One of several 2005 Pinarello Dogma frames that are available from various sources.

2) A 2005 C50 HP (PR00) that is at a local shop and is on "fire sale." Apparently this frame has been ridden for about 100 miles but is perfect and will carry a full warranty.

I've done a lot of searching here and aside from the obvious differences in materials it seems that the major difference will be in handling (with the Dogma being a little "faster"). I ride recreationally (10 - 14 hours per week) with most rides around 2 - 3 hours. Because of the time spent on the bike and the fact that I tend to prefer "stable" over "fast" I'm really leaning toward the C50.

One more wrinkle... I have a Colnago Dream HP on order from Maestro and expect it sometime in May.

So... should I go with the super-smooth C50 and have two carbon frames or should I go with the Dogma and have two alloy frames. I realize that this is a no-lose situation and that no matter what I chose the three resulting bikes will be different enough in ride quality and behavior to keep me interested.

Like I said.... it's a happy problem...
 

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rock n rolling resistance
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AMP said:
If only all of my "problems" could be of this nature...

I'm in the market for a top-end frame to replace an existing one that just doesn't fit right anymore. Currently I have a Look 555 (that does fit) and a Calfee Tetra (that doesn't). I have nothing against CF (obviously) and am looking for a good all-around frame that will be suitable for serious recreational riding....

I've been looking around at what's available and have narrowed my choice down to two potential options.

1) One of several 2005 Pinarello Dogma frames that are available from various sources.

2) A 2005 C50 HP (PR00) that is at a local shop and is on "fire sale." Apparently this frame has been ridden for about 100 miles but is perfect and will carry a full warranty.

I've done a lot of searching here and aside from the obvious differences in materials it seems that the major difference will be in handling (with the Dogma being a little "faster"). I ride recreationally (10 - 14 hours per week) with most rides around 2 - 3 hours. Because of the time spent on the bike and the fact that I tend to prefer "stable" over "fast" I'm really leaning toward the C50.

One more wrinkle... I have a Colnago Dream HP on order from Maestro and expect it sometime in May.

So... should I go with the super-smooth C50 and have two carbon frames or should I go with the Dogma and have two alloy frames. I realize that this is a no-lose situation and that no matter what I chose the three resulting bikes will be different enough in ride quality and behavior to keep me interested.

Like I said.... it's a happy problem...
I've always wanted a Pinarello myself and specifically a Dogma (even though I have a C50, KG486, CT2, etc etc already...) but from what I gather thus far is alloy Pinarellos, especially the Dogma/ Prince, aren't for the 45+ rec riders... just too "quick/ fast" handling and stiff/ harsh riding... I think your new Dream HP will be a more comfortable "Dogma" for you and a better alloy frame choice for you.... I suggest C50...in my opinion simply the best riding all around bike as there will always be a C50 or a compatible later version Nag in my stable... btw I'm kind looking at new Paris carbon.... but do I want 4 cf bikes....?
 

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Rose Canyon Cycles in San Diego had a Dogma hanging up in the shop. I believe it was the bike show model so it would be unique. Very nice but too small for me. Ron Lacey owns the shop and posts under "Ron Lacey" on this forum. Very cool shop, only high end stuff and he can stay in business. What a wonderful country we live in.
 

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6was9 said:
I've always wanted a Pinarello myself and specifically a Dogma (even though I have a C50, KG486, CT2, etc etc already...) but from what I gather thus far is alloy Pinarellos, especially the Dogma/ Prince, aren't for the 45+ rec riders... just too "quick/ fast" handling and stiff/ harsh riding... I think your new Dream HP will be a more comfortable "Dogma" for you and a better alloy frame choice for you.... I suggest C50...in my opinion simply the best riding all around bike as there will always be a C50 or a compatible later version Nag in my stable... btw I'm kind looking at new Paris carbon.... but do I want 4 cf bikes....?
Geez, whoever told you that was incredibly far off the mark. I rode the Dogma FP on a 40 mile ride and thought it was the second-most comfortable bike I had ever been on (CT-1 being the most comfortable). As far as quickness, it was in the middle ground, not exceptionally fast or slow steering, but a comfortable medium. It was stiff as hell, but sucked up big bumps like ti and absorbed road buzz almost like carbon, pretty amazing, really.

Btw, I have owned 4 carbon road bikes (2 currently), several steel road bikes (one custom), and several aluminum road bikes. I have worked in shops, and have spent time on many, many bikes at Interbike Demo Days going back to when they were first held in Blue Diamond rather than Boulder City. I say this to let you know I am not just blowing smoke, but have actual experience and a seasoned butt backing my assesment.

The C50 wouldn't be bad, but I would try the Dogma if you already have a nag coming. Plus, it is a far less common bike and it will be something truly different from the crowd, but you can't go wrong with either one.

Enjoy!
 

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I'm in a similar dilema. I can afford to have one cheapish rain bike, and one top end bike. For the top end bike, I had bought a C50, but it was too big for me and have since sold it. Now after pondering a while, I am trying to decide what to get, another C50, Cristallo, Pinarello, etc.
But the C50 and Dogma are different in terms of geometry, no? I'm assuming one would fit you better than the other.
Anyone ride a Colnago Cristallo yet? Am I the only one that likes the 'JET' paint (probably)?? :)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
But the C50 and Dogma are different in terms of geometry, no? I'm assuming one would fit you better than the other.
Given the range of available sizes I can get either one to put the control points in essentially the same place. The front end geometries are somewhat different and yield the difference in handling.
 

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rock n rolling resistance
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randomguy said:
Geez, whoever told you that was incredibly far off the mark.

I am not just blowing smoke, but have actual experience and a seasoned butt backing my assesment.

So you mean Dogma is an incredibly comfortable bike (for a 50+ rec rider) according to your "seasoned butt" .... more power to you as I've actually never riddin a Dogma...

I was seriously interested in getting a Dogma for a while but I was dissuaded by the impression I got from my research that Dogma is pretty much a stiff race bike albeit lighter and more forgiving than Prince as Onda curves do some justice to dampening..... But I never got the impression from anywhere that Dogma is "incredibly" comfortable bike for rec riders...

If I recall correctly I think it was on this forum, a 50 something rider selling his Dogma because his body just couldn't deal with the ride that he wanted suggestion for a Ti or carbon alternative... If the search function worked (and if I had time) I'd try to look up the thread.

But as you say you've ridden one on yer "seasoned butt" and I don't know other than what I've heard so far... as I haven't had a chance to ride one.... Hey I'd love to have a Dogma as I've wanted one and I might get one perhap yet (as in my case, I have a C50 already)... and if it is "incredibly" comfortable as you say... well that's even better...

What I was telling OP is that, in my opinion, outta two options C50 would be a more comfortable all arounder thus a better choice for a 50+ rec rider. Also Dogma and Dream FP are rather very similar bikes (besides the alloy and geometry) if you discount the bling factor of Dogma....
 

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Discussion Starter #8
6was9 said:
What I was telling OP is that, in my opinion, outta two options C50 would be a more comfortable all arounder thus a better choice for a 50+ rec rider.
.... feeeling old...

For the record, I'm a 30+ rec rider...

Thanks for your comments! I appreciate your insight and tend to agree with your assessment.
 

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Hey AMP,

Check out the Weight Weenies forum and do a search. There's a great guy who goes by LJ there who owns two dogmas and a paris and has a montello TT bike. He would be your best source on the dogma's abilities. The front end geos I think would be almost as big a factor for you as the frame itself unless you ride a large size frame where the HTA would be steeper.

The Dream HP is advertised as a super stiff riding frame. So you might want a counterpart. Or you could just buy a set of topolinos and put on some 25-28c tires (depending on clearance) for those high mileage days and then switch wheelsets for those fast grp rides. Then you can pick the frame based on stiffness and geometry and not worry as much about comfort since wheels/tires have a much great effect on that.

Great problem to have indeed. ;)
 

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rock n rolling resistance
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AMP said:
.... feeeling old...

For the record, I'm a 30+ rec rider...

Thanks for your comments! I appreciate your insight and tend to agree with your assessment.
Oooops... I apologize AMP... I must've mistaken your posting count as your age... anyho even for a 30+ rec rider wanting all arounder I'd still give same advice... Dogma would be nice different/ fun addition to your stable besides your main ride though...

Here is the link to a weightweenies forum :rolleyes: thread (LJ's? comment) I found:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12251&highlight=dogma
 

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Good question: tough to go wrong here. This is my take (given, I have never ridden a C50, but have owned a CT1, Dream Plus, Dream, Ovalmaster, and Master Light): The Pinarello is very neutral handling: stable yet handles like on rails in corners. No worries when taking the hands off the bars going fast-the bike just tracks very well. I have a standard Dogma in my garage, have some time on a Marvel, and I also owned a F4:13 for a week, and there is probably no better handling bike than Pinarello. The ONDA fork especially is very stiff and precise: noticeably stiffer than the Look HSC5SL and the Colnago Force (I haven't ridden the Star). Not the lightest fork, but perhaps the stiffest around.

The Colnago feel in general is a little more stable, and noticeably slower. For my preferences, it is a touch too slow: just not as exciting on curvy hairpin descents. Not really noticeable until you get on a quicker bike in a high-speed descent: if you lived in Kansas, I doubt it matters. I find that a bit quicker bike does everything best for me locally, but truth be told: I could own a Colnago, not having known a quicker bike exists, and be very happy.

The C50, locally, has become a status-symbol bike, ridden by guys with big bellies and big $. Nothing wrong with that, but I like to have something a bit unique. I have yet to see another Dogma in Oregon.

Ride-wise, the Dogma was not exactly smooth for me at 150lbs. Definitely smoother than any other bikes this stiff, but it wasn't a magic-carpet ride. It felt comparable to the Cannondale Six13 in terms of smoothness, which is a slight bit more harsh than both the Look 585 and Fondriest Carbon Lex (which I have owned within the past year). I could ride the Dogma all day on bad roads, but from what I have heard, the C50 is probably smoother. The Dogma is likely more powerful, no doubt about it, and for it's lack of flex, it probably can't be beat.

I would say choose based on handling, and fit. The "smoothness" issue is likely cured by dropping 10psi from your tires, or running a nice set of tires or wheels (instead of those beat-me-up stiff race wheels: save those for race day). The Velomax and Bontrager Race X-lite wheels seem to soak up the road vibes pretty well, much better than a Ksyrium. Using a nice tire (like a Veloflex or Gommitalia) at at least 250tpi also works wonders.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks dawgcatching!

Around here there's not much for technical descents and the few roads that have them have far too much traffic to really enjoy it. I had a custom Serotta at one point that was setup with quicker handling and although it was a blast in the twisties it got a little tiresome for the other 95% of my riding. Based on the geometry it was a bit twitchier than what I would expect out of the dogma.

At this point I've pretty much decided on the C50. Although the Dogma would be very unique around here, and I like that aspect, I think that I would be more comfortable on the C50. Too bad there's nothing that I can test ride to get a good feeling for what to expect.

Thanks again everyone for your comments and insight. I feel a lot more comfortable with my decision given the help that I've gotten here.
 
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