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Dr. Flats a lot
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We're developing a survey to provide race organizers feedback on their events. This is particularly focused on race safety. I'm drafting the beta version of this and want to make sure we identify common factors in collisions, such as pack size, road hazards etc...
If you have things you think we should pay attention to, let us know.

Thanks
 

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why are you posting this here?

the pro racing scene ain't gonna listen to us non racing cyclists. That's between the riders, the organizers and the cycling federations/UCI. They have real experts involved, including the pro riders who are experts in their own right.

And the regional amateur racing has its own regional politics handling safety, and they sort of follow the UCI directives. But most posting on here are not even active in amateur racing any more. I haven't raced in 23 years and do not care about amateur racing safety. I participate in organized non-sanctioned 'races' like Fondos but they do not have to follow any overarching body.

My totally non expert opinion is that more hard core road racers need to spend more time mountain biking. Seems like on the pro circuit the ex mtn bikers don't crash as much because they have better bike handling skills. I found this to be the case back when I started racing (as a keen mtn biker) and was weirded out by the other racers who rode timidly and crashed too much.
 

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Dr. Flats a lot
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure I would characterize ourselves as real experts but we do understand this is a very complex puzzle. This data is actually focused specifically at criterium racing and we are very interested in understanding why injuries occur in all echelons of the sport. Numerically the most common injuries are in Cat 4 and 5 racers and they are likely to most benefit from the information we collect. Understand the decision to not race, it's been quite awhile for me as well.
 

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IMO/E a major crash causing factor is when the group "swarms". Criteriums are too short and easy or at least easy enough for most to sit in and be super fresh for the last couple laps. If the race isn't fast enough or no team controlling you have 50 guys at the end thinking they are Peter Sagan and feel they can win/podium. That's just a part of road racing. Cross and mountain don't see this as much because the courses are natural selectors that thin the groups out more by fitness/skill. Not so much on the road side.
 

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The less experience you have, the more likely you are to react badly to a particular situation. Cat 4s and 5s simply don't have much time riding in close quarters with large variations in speed and changes in direction.

The solution would be to get more experience, which is what they're doing by continuing to race.

I think it's just part of it.

Pro/1/2s crash because someone does something stupid and/or straight-out misjudges something, or because they're being reckless. Not really a solution to that, I think, as what's "reckless" to one person may not be so to another person (shooting gaps, diving corners, lateral movements, etc.). Though repeated offenders whose actions cause crashes need to be dealt with suspension, and malicious offenders need to be outright booted for years. And everyone makes a misjudgment or bad decision at some point or the other.

I will add that at times there are simply unsafe courses, too. Masters nats has had a problem with that for a few years. Other prominent crits deal with stupid corners or barrier situations, or god-awful pavement in critical intersections, etc. They either fix it or people skip those races.
 

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JTBC So is this going to be feedback from the riders for the organizers? Quality of pre-race information, briefing and hazards highlighted. How well are inexperienced riders steered to levels appropriate for them. Size of field appropriate to the course and of course femoving anyone judged to be reckless during the race. But like BCSaltchucker I haven't raced in anger for over 20 years. Too many latecomers MAMILS to the sport with really shitty skills to risk getting in a peloton with yet alone in a pushing match. Getting slow sucks.
 

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Dr. Flats a lot
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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
JTBC So is this going to be feedback from the riders for the organizers? Quality of pre-race information, briefing and hazards highlighted. How well are inexperienced riders steered to levels appropriate for them. Size of field appropriate to the course and of course femoving anyone judged to be reckless during the race. But like BCSaltchucker I haven't raced in anger for over 20 years. Too many latecomers MAMILS to the sport with really shitty skills to risk getting in a peloton with yet alone in a pushing match. Getting slow sucks.
Thanks for the feedback. Clearly the interplay between riders is a major cause of accidents. It's the triggering event for around 68% of competitive collisions. Pack size is definitely a major player and we're looking at that. Also have included information about officiating the event. I agree we should have more specific input on whether dangerous riders were identified and removed.

The survey is an app which will be sent to racers after competing in a cycling event. USA Cycling gets medical reports for all their events separate from this. We've updated the reporting system for USAC for crashes. We can use this information to first identify events that had injuries and second provide them direct feedback on areas that have issues and recommended changes.

To respond to pedalbiker- I know exactly what you're saying about riders behaviors. How do you think we could measure that? Keep in mind this is a survey of racers, not of officials.
 

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If you aren't crashing you aren't trying to win.
 

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If you want to win, you have to take chances...........
As for preventing crashes, course layout is very important.
Here is an example of a poorly laid out course.....
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Never raced road or crit and new to road bike alltogether and I openly state my experience is nil.

But I did rave mtb and I sure as he'll still have a hell of a fire that burns inside me and keeps my old ass very competitive.

This is like trying to keep NASCAR competitors from crashing...impossible. if a racer sees a risk but also a potential reward for that risk he/she calculates the risk/reward and if it jives in the head they go for it. Regulate human nature out of the competition and you kill your sport.
 

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This is like trying to keep NASCAR competitors from crashing...impossible. if a racer sees a risk but also a potential reward for that risk he/she calculates the risk/reward and if it jives in the head they go for it. Regulate human nature out of the competition and you kill your sport.
Completely false. Virtually no one watches or enters a race hoping to see or be victim to stupid or dangerous behavior. Do you think the TDF would have been better is Sagan stayed in an elbowed out the possible winner in every stage? It was, after all, just human nature to take someone out.
Look at any sport. They all have rules that are contrary to human nature.
 

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We're developing a survey to provide race organizers feedback on their events. This is particularly focused on race safety.
Many of the bad crashes I hear about are due to sharp corners at the end of down hills where there were not preceding up hills to break up the pack. One race in particular there is a sharp turn at the end of a hill when everyone is together at 40ish and despite everyone knowing the history, it still happens every year where someone crashes bad.
That situation probably could/should be designed out of a lot of courses.
 

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Completely false. Virtually no one watches or enters a race hoping to see or be victim to stupid or dangerous behavior. Do you think the TDF would have been better is Sagan stayed in an elbowed out the possible winner in every stage? It was, after all, just human nature to take someone out.
Look at any sport. They all have rules that are contrary to human nature.
No issue with a disagreement and we can banter back and forth about human nature. BUT you sir are taking some very liberal interpretations of the premise I stated. You are making a stretch to some assumptions my post does not support.

You assumed my stating human nature meant some form of carnage (stupid or dangerous behavior). Nowhere do I assume it's human nature to take someone out. Human nature to take a risk if the individual feels there is a reward. That risk could be an early sprint that nobody expects....but could also gas the racer for the rest of the event.

Direct to to NASCAR analogy. I did not go near what you assumed. I don't think most NASCAR drivers that ended up in a crash took what in effect was a stupid or dangerous act feeling it was THAT until it was over and the crash happened. Lets face it, ballsy move that works creates a hero and a legend in many sports; same action that fails makes him a stupid and dangerous participant.

As far as rules and human nature: Premier athletes or premier drivers in a NASCAR race are all at such a high level of performance that if you remove the human element there is no reason to watch or cheer. Virtual tie barring a mechanical failure. If this was not true there would be no doping....Tiger Woods Golf!! Come on! Lance Armstrong! Competition is all about human nature.
 

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Many of the bad crashes I hear about are due to sharp corners at the end of down hills where there were not preceding up hills to break up the pack. One race in particular there is a sharp turn at the end of a hill when everyone is together at 40ish and despite everyone knowing the history, it still happens every year where someone crashes bad.
That situation probably could/should be designed out of a lot of courses.
I'm breaking your balls a bit but it's in good spirits not to fight. The above post kinda supports my human nature comments. I believe it does anyway.

If the same crash keeps happening under the same circumstances; and racers are aware of the situstion yet it keep occurring.
 

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No issue with a disagreement and we can banter back and forth about human nature. BUT you sir are taking some very liberal interpretations of the premise I stated. You are making a stretch to some assumptions my post does not support.

You assumed my stating human nature meant some form of carnage (stupid or dangerous behavior). Nowhere do I assume it's human nature to take someone out. Human nature to take a risk if the individual feels there is a reward.
Oh, I think you should have assumed it then. Do you really think there was a reason other than Sagan not being able to suppress his human nature for that elbow? Not to harp on one incident but just to continue with the same example.

Do you really think a competitive NASCAR driver doesn't have it in his nature to run someone into the wall? Or how how "Regulate human nature out of the competition and you kill your sport." isn't really accurate in many cases?

Maybe I'm just an evil person but as someone who's played a lot of hockey I think I have a pretty good grasp on what human nature can suggest someone do in the heat of battle and how the game essentially forbidding acting upon that human nature is a good thing and doesn't ruin the game. Same for cycling.

There would be no rules in any sport, essentially, or no sports left, if regulating human nature ruined them.
 

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Oh, I think you should have assumed it then. Do you really think there was a reason other than Sagan not being able to suppress his human nature for that elbow? Not to harp on one incident but just to continue with the same example.

Do you really think a competitive NASCAR driver doesn't have it in his nature to run someone into the wall? Or how how "Regulate human nature out of the competition and you kill your sport." isn't really accurate in many cases?

Maybe I'm just an evil person but as someone who's played a lot of hockey I think I have a pretty good grasp on what human nature can suggest someone do in the heat of battle and how the game essentially forbidding acting upon that human nature is a good thing and doesn't ruin the game. Same for cycling.

There would be no rules in any sport, essentially, or no sports left, if regulating human nature ruined them.
If I assumed it it changes my premise. That was not my premise. That is my point. We all have that devil in us. Hockey explains a lot. Football and baseball for me. Hence I've said linebacker on a road bike to describe me.

We can differ and be cool. I thank you for that. I think the more we discuss the more we come to that centrist point. I dont see the competitor as taking someone out from an action but more of a If my power move causes his ass to faulter than its his lack of ability that caused the issue not me purposely seeking to cause him harm.

I'm from NE and its been a long time since I played hockey. About 1990. I'm a big boy and if I crushed you it wasn't me trying to take you out it was how we play the game. Same if I got crushed. Speed and power and everyone loos for an edge.
 

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get a room
Why would you offer that? Zero to add to the discussion and just a D Bag response. It's a net forum. Even if 1 of us were to slay the other...there ain't no prize princess. Don't like the discussion, either add something relevant or avoid it.

You sir, are now a lightning rod.
 
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