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Make America grope again
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Too slow to be smart
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Do I get to make out with that girl?

On a side note, WTF is with that movie? I was the 14th person in this world to "thumbs down" that video clip.
 

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Make America grope again
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Do I get to make out with that girl?

On a side note, WTF is with that movie? I was the 14th person in this world to "thumbs down" that video clip.
Hey. I took me awhile to find a suitably crappy schmaltzy clip from twilight.

No, actually, that clip was the first hit on google.

Which explains why Twilight won 7 Razzies. And why it's such a good PSA on the dangers of blood abuse.

LA Times
 

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Make America grope again
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Eh. It sounded like there was going to be a part III on the blood doping article. If there is, I'll post it.

People either read the articles and connect the dots, or they don't.
 

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Cycling News put together a good article on blood doping.

To me, it puts to rest any 'you could win clean until EPO came along in the mid 90s' arguments.
Not exactly. He was unable to confirm that any riders had used transfusions during a Grand Tour.

Nencini was not doing a transfusion but an early form of testosterone. It was mistranslated once and repeated . Dumas exact words were

"the two arms connected to a jar, suitable for a double infusion of serum-based male hormones. "
Joop transfused once, prior to the Tour and said he would never do it again.

Riders from PDM team have said that doping was rampant on the team but they saw no indication of transfusions.
 

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Make America grope again
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The 84 Olympic team did transfuse. As did the hour records.

I guess to me there is theoretical and proven.

Theoretically, people started transfusing in 1972. So theoretically, any athlete after that might have been blood doping. At least, the technology was definitely out there.

Maybe they didn't. Lots didn't. But theoretically, it's possible they did.

I thought the PDM notebooks showed blood transfusions? Am I misremembering?
 

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The 84 Olympic team did transfuse. As did the hour records.

I guess to me there is theoretical and proven.

Theoretically, people started transfusing in 1972. So theoretically, any athlete after that might have been blood doping. At least, the technology was definitely out there.

Maybe they didn't. Lots didn't. But theoretically, it's possible they did.

I thought the PDM notebooks showed blood transfusions? Am I misremembering?
Certainly there was transfusing for the track but not for Grand Tours.

PDM notebooks referred to transfusions but none of the riders confirmed it. Andy Bishop was on the team for that Tour, said that there was plenty of talk of doping but he never saw, or heard mention of, transfusions.

Conconi talked openly of Moser using transfusions for the Hour record but also said that they did not use them for the Giro, thought they were too risky
 

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Make America grope again
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Why would they be used for track and not road?

Why would national sports federations do whatever they could to win Olympic medals, but not spread it around to the Pro ranks?
 

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Why would they be used for track and not road?

Why would national sports federations do whatever they could to win Olympic medals, but not spread it around to the Pro ranks?
Controlled environment. In the late 70's the most modern methods allowed for blood to be stored for 35 days and would result in much damage, and loss, of cells. There was also the concern of the effect of increased blood pressure on a 95 degree day in the mountains
 

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Make America grope again
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
But the same folks who were so scared of blood transfusions started killing themselves off with EPO in the 90s?

I'm not trying to grill you. I'm just trying to sort this all out.

My larger point is that there are things that get repeated over and over until people believe them as gospel. Myths, half truths and out right lies suddenly become facts.

"500 clean tests...the peloton cleaned up in 2006...."

I'm trying to figure out if its myth or reality that EPO was a game changer in the 90s.

If teams were on cycles if steroids, low dose testosterone and blood bags in the 80s, it would be hard to argue that achievements from the 90s are artificial, but achievements from the 80s should stand.

Or to put it another way, is there a clear time when doping went from quacky and dangerous (Major Taylor riding the wrong way) to an insurmountable game changer (Andy Hampsten retires).
 

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But the same folks who were so scared of blood transfusions started killing themselves off with EPO in the 90s?

I'm not trying to grill you. I'm just trying to sort this all out.

My larger point is that there are things that get repeated over and over until people believe them as gospel. Myths, half truths and out right lies suddenly become facts.

"500 clean tests...the peloton cleaned up in 2006...."

I'm trying to figure out if its myth or reality that EPO was a game changer in the 90s.

If teams were on cycles if steroids, low dose testosterone and blood bags in the 80s, it would be hard to argue that achievements from the 90s are artificial, but achievements from the 80s should stand.

Or to put it another way, is there a clear time when doping went from quacky and dangerous (Major Taylor riding the wrong way) to an insurmountable game changer (Andy Hampsten retires).
Not exactly.

EPO was seen as a safer, easier, option. It was managed by doctors (Padilla, Conconi, Ferrari) The deaths, and other issues, slowed the uptake of it but once the experts figure out how to do it right use exploded.

The easiest way to see if it was a game changer is to look at the climbing times and outputs.The sudden, dramatic, change is obvious
 

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Rumor has it that distance runner Lasse Viren was one of the first successful blood dopers. He doubled in the 5000m and 10,000m events in the 1972 Olympics and again in the 1976 Olympics.

Now the guy has never admitted it. And at the time transfusions were not illegal.
 
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