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How far will you go?

2749 Views 37 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  duriel
How far will you go using off brand products? I don't blink when it comes to "Asian" clothing, good quality bibs and shirt for 20-30 bucks. Water bottles, gloves, etc.
Now the dilemma is, I'm building up my latest project and have been eying these 3d print seats as well as carbon bars, stems, posts and wheels for at least a quarter of the price. I'm having a hard time doing that. Sad to say I want the label.
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I would (and have) used every part of a bike with off brand parts.

Some brands are good. Some aren't. You have to do your research.
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Sad to say I want the label.
So, what are you asking here, because if you want the label, the only way to get it is to buy the label.
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Off brand as in cheap stuff from questionable companies with questionable or nonexistent reputations? No.
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You mean like the Chinese direct Flyxii carbon road frame that now has 8500 miles on it ?
In my experience: if you buy a $1 Rubik's cube there's a 99.999% chance it will be shit. If you buy an $80 Rubik's cube it will be really good. If you buy a $25 Rubik's cube there's a 95% chance that it will be really good. Like Chinese bike parts, Rubik's cubes are cheap shit from China. When you pay more for a mass manufactured part you're not paying for a better part, you're paying for better quality control on the same part. What's your tolerance for questionable quality control on a given part? That's your answer.
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Some brands are good. Some aren't. You have to do your research.
Exactly. There are excellent as well as crappy Chinese companies. And there are excellent as well as crappy US companies. In general, you get what you pay for. Inexpensive stuff is inexpensive for a reason with a few exceptions.
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Buy crap, get crap. Rather than fill landfills with poorly made garbage products, just buy a decent product once.
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Buy crap, get crap. Rather than fill landfills with poorly made garbage products, just buy a decent product once.
Or as the saying goes: Buy cheap, buy twice.
Kind of depends on what you define as "off brand", but here are some negatives:

If the product is a direct rip off or counterfeit, you are supporting a company that is stealing intelllectual and creative property. Companies that spend the money to develop safe, functional, reliable products should be rewarded for their work in bringing said products to market.

There is little/no accountability if you are harmed by a black/gray market product made by an anonymous overseas company. This provides no incentive for continuing quality or safety controls. If I'm going to use a product almost daily and routinely hit speeds of 35-40mph, I'm not going to use something that was made by a company that I know nothing about. Established brands follow safety guidelines and standards and issue recalls when they find a deficiency in their products.

There is no way of knowing if the product was produced in an environmentally responsible manner. Sustainably sourced materials? Carbon footprint?

There is no way of knowing if the product was produced using fair labor practices. Does the company pay fair wages? Use child labor?

There is no way of knowing if the product contains hazardous materials.

No customer service to speak of.

Bottom line – if you're buying these "off brand", anonymously-made products based strictly on a dirt cheap price tag, chances are some if not all of these shortcuts were taken. How else would they be able to bring a product to market with that price discrepancy?

I'll pay the extra money.
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I think I got my answer. I would comment though that it may be possible to buy the 85 dollar Rubik's cube from the actual factory that makes it for 1 dollar.
Can you honestly say that you can confirm any product you buy today is produced in an environmentally responsible manner, using fair labor practices etc? Granted for sure the customer service would likely be non existent.
Can you honestly say that you can confirm any product you buy today is produced in an environmentally responsible manner, using fair labor practices etc?
No, the average consumer can't possibly vet their products to such a high degree. This is why you generally want to buy from trusted brands. There is a much higher degree of accountability.

Reputable companies today are far more conscious about sourcing their supply chains, manufacturing practices and labor practices. There are internal compliance departments, watch dog groups, orgs, etc., devoted to making sure these companies live up to their claims. These companies have a vested interest in protecting their brands' reputations. Consumers are far more empowered to understand how the products they use are made.

I have 30 years of experience as a creative director working with large brands down to single entrepreneurs. I've worked with product developers, production managers, legal/compliance teams, brand managers, PR teams, etc. I'm often in the room when choices are made based on the criteria I've described. I go to manufacturing plants for quality checks. I work with brokers that source manufacturing in China. This is basically my area of expertise.

Or, you can do the reasearch, find the factory that makes the Rubik's cube you want, fly to China (or wherever they're produced) and then find a guy that'll sell it to you out of the back door of the factory for whatever price you've negotiated. This is the reductio ad absurdum argument. If saving money is more important to you than any/everything else including health and safety, knock yourself out. Caveat emptor.
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I doubt one would have to go to the extremes expressed, but hey, it looks good. The rest? Although for sure on paper what you describe may be true, but in practice? There's a reason why manufacturing moved over seas and down south.
I doubt one would have to go to the extremes expressed, but hey, it looks good. The rest? Although for sure on paper what you describe may be true, but in practice? There's a reason why manufacturing moved over seas and down south.
Wow, you're the one that suggested that you could possibly purchase your product directly from the factory, not me! It's not practical, hence the reductio ad absurdum comment. I am describing how things work in practice, not in theory. I just told you that I have 30 years of experience in this area, and you're countering facts with generalizations about purchasing directly from the factory. There are built in costs to product safety, function, reliability, sustainability, movement of goods and services, brand stewardship, etc. This isn't "on paper". It happens in the real world.

One Wheel's comment is dead on accurate. There are generally 3 approaches to bringing a product to market:
1. reduce costs as much as possible and sell for the cheapest price possible: These are the cheap products that end up in the landfill shortly after purchase.
2. produce a premium product and jack up the price to absurd amounts: Elitist, conspicuous consumption products
3. produce a good, reliable product for a fair price: This is the value most people want and expect from companies they trust.

You asked in your original post "how far will you go using off brand products?" I'm giving you an answer and providing an accurate reason why. Counterfeit, copycat, gray/black markets have emerged from moving manufacturing to third world economies. The people that are undertaking these business practices aren't nuns and aren't accountable if their product kills you.

Like I said: when my safety is at stake, I'll spend the extra money for a higher degree of accountability from a reputable brand. I don't fault a person for wanting to save money – I do too. Just understand the ramifications.
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This reeks of Strong, light, and cheap... pick two.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant to say you could find the $80 dollar product, I went back and looked at this nauseating thread, on Alibaba, Ali express, wish or some other outlet like that at a significant discount.
30 years? that puts you in the 90's. Have you ever worked with Nike, the fashion industry? Theres a reason why manufacturing moved overseas.
All of this really has nothing to do with my question. I just wanted to get a feel on how people view using these products. The Winspace's 5 years ago. tig answered.
Go ahead get your last word in. I know you need to, then let's give the poor horse a rest.
happy to not kick the poor, already dead horse. Sorry if I misunderstood the nature of your intial question.

Edit: Have not worked directly with Nike, but I know people that have worked at Wieden and Kennedy, Nike's agency of record. I have worked for fashion companies and they pay shit wages. This is why I get my hackles up when people try to do things on the cheap, reflective of my comments. I try not to support companies that don't treat their employees or customers well.
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I have 30 years of experience as a creative director working with large brands down to single entrepreneurs. I've worked with product developers, production managers, legal/compliance teams, brand managers, PR teams, etc. I'm often in the room when choices are made based on the criteria I've described. I go to manufacturing plants for quality checks. I work with brokers that source manufacturing in China. This is basically my area of expertise.
Then you must be familiar with the term "planned obsolescence". Consumer products these days are $#!t in durability compared to old days.
Yes, it's a common term. I've basically advocated producing, selling and buying quality sustainable products on this thread, so not sure why you would direct this at me. People that support companies that make crappy products by buying their products are the problem. Stop buying them and the companies and products will cease to exist.

As a consumer you have choices and agency. If you choose to buy cheap products, that's your problem. The components I install on my bikes are most likely going to last longer than I own the bikes themselves. Willful ignorance or claiming victimhood is not an option. Get informed.
Then you must be familiar with the term "planned obsolescence". Consumer products these days are $#!t in durability compared to old days.
Do products really not last as long as they used to or are we just older and that time passes by faster? 😉
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