Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
but here is an excerpt from an email sent out to the riders in my district that tells much about what is wrong with amateur racing. I was not there, I know not of what I speak, and I may be completely wrong. The guy may have been completely in the right, but you certainly can read this and consider it a particularly valiant effort to cover one's own fault, fault that carried consequences beyond just one rider.


I also would like to tell everyone involved in the crash that I am sorry
that this happened. There was just no way to avoid the rider in front
of me with the slowing down on top of the hill. These things just
happen and I hope everyone has a speedy recovery.

I don't know. It doesn't sound to me as if it "just happen[ed]."
 

·
pinoy thunder
Joined
·
341 Posts
That's the nature of racing.
What are you going to do? Sue the guy for being an idiot?

My friend crashed. Some idiot caused it. He broke his arm and trashed his bike. Dude had to file for disability for 6 months. Accidents happen and we all should accept the risks involved in racing.
 

·
More Cowbell!
Joined
·
4,832 Posts
bill said:
I don't know. It doesn't sound to me as if it "just happen[ed]."
You've got to watch a couple riders in front of you. If you you see them slowing, then you had best be ready to check your speed -- preferably by soft pedalling, sitting up, or moving into the wind and NOT by braking if at all possible. Sounds more like the guy had his head down while hammering up the hill and wan't watching for potential bunching.
 

·
More Cowbell!
Joined
·
4,832 Posts
stihl said:
Accidents happen and we all should accept the risks involved in racing.
Racers ought to understand how to handle themselves in a pack and take responsibility for stupid behavior. The OP was pointing out that the person who sent the email looked to be a primary cause of the accident but was taking no real responsibility for his bone headed move.

Sure, accidents can happen but fewer will happen if racers know what they are doing.
 

·
pinoy thunder
Joined
·
341 Posts
You are right, it looks to me that the rider who sent the email was apologetic at first but seemed to wash his hands towards the end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
To me it just all seems like speculation. I'm loathe to point fingers at a cause of a crash, even if I witness it myself. In racing, crashing sometimes just happens, or the cause is confluence of events and decisions. Slowing at the top of a hill shouldn't happen, and most times it's no problem when it does, but every once in a while will cause a crash. Is it the apologizer's fault? Could be could be not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
You need to beware of whats happening around you during a race. I have no idea what the real circumstances were, but I am betting that this could have been avoided. I've seen some guys that blowup right before the top of a difficult climb and basically quit pedaling and almost come to a stand still. I've seen one rider plow right into one of these guys. I am figuring he was concentrating so much hanging on to the wheel inches front of him that he had no time to react. Yet another time, I almost got taken out by a guy who did not look to his side before passing a rider struggling uphill. He was impatient and careless. He heard a mouthful from me and the few other riders. Sometimes crashing cant be avoided, plain and simple, but whole lot can be done to avoid being the one who caused it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,047 Posts
It makes no sense to send an email like this. If he is at fault, he should make his amends in person. If he is not at fault (or it truly was an "accident"), everyone involved will understand.

I can forgive someone for passively causing an accident- but idiots who make completely stupid choices and cause them are infuriating (try to squeeze into a space where they have no business, etc.). If the hill was involved, my guess is the hill didn't just jump into the middle of the road. Everyone knows it will bunch up the riders and should anticipate its inevitability.

MD80 said:
You need to beware of whats happening around you during a race. I have no idea what the real circumstances were, but I am betting that this could have been avoided. I've seen some guys that blowup right before the top of a difficult climb and basically quit pedaling and almost come to a stand still. I've seen one rider plow right into one of these guys. I am figuring he was concentrating so much hanging on to the wheel inches front of him that he had no time to react. Yet another time, I almost got taken out by a guy who did not look to his side before passing a rider struggling uphill. He was impatient and careless. He heard a mouthful from me and the few other riders. Sometimes crashing cant be avoided, plain and simple, but whole lot can be done to avoid being the one who caused it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,834 Posts
Crashes happen, get over it, or stop racing, it's like complaining about the sky being blue, it will always be blue no matter how much you complain about it. Wrecks happen in the pro peloton, with supposedly the most skilled riders in the world, and you expect the amature ranks to be safe? You must be kidding.

Two choices:

1. Accept the risks, and race

2. Don't accept the risks, don't race.

I have no idea what the real circumstances were, but I am betting that this could have been avoided.
BTW, ALL crashes COULD be avoided, so yeah, it could have been avoided. There has never been a crash that was unavoidable, even Beloki in the 03 tour, that could have been avoided, he was going too fast, or he wasn't leaning correctly, perhaps the tire wasn't glued on properly, but it could have been avoided. Things don't just happen, poof I'm a millionare, not happening, when you hit the ground, either you messed up, or someone hit you and took you down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,808 Posts
group ride - riding 5-6 wide on the open street, I'm way in the back, I hear "car up" or "car left" ( I assume it was for the right hand turn at the stop sign).. so people start to file in
3-4 wide..and someone has to slow up..then people start braking, and eventually 3 people go down in the back.. one dude had a $7k bike and was pissed about that..

In the situation you propose, if the guy in front maxed out, slowed up, and this rider was pinned, what else could he do besides slow up.

And doesn't the back of the pack usually ride into the riders at the front on those hill crests?... I thought that was normal.



bill said:
but here is an excerpt from an email sent out to the riders in my district that tells much about what is wrong with amateur racing. I was not there, I know not of what I speak, and I may be completely wrong. The guy may have been completely in the right, but you certainly can read this and consider it a particularly valiant effort to cover one's own fault, fault that carried consequences beyond just one rider.


I also would like to tell everyone involved in the crash that I am sorry
that this happened. There was just no way to avoid the rider in front
of me with the slowing down on top of the hill. These things just
happen and I hope everyone has a speedy recovery.

I don't know. It doesn't sound to me as if it "just happen[ed]."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Normal in a 4/5 race, maybe, to scrunch up, but not required. I do a hill ride with some 1's and 2's occasionally. When we earthlings get to the crest, we suck wind and pat each other on the back. The 1's and 2's, they just keep pedaling and go on down the other side. By the time you look up, they've got twenty seconds on the rest of us.

The hill in that race, btw, ain't all that much of a hill.

Someone else here called it, I'm sure. Our hero probably was charging up the hill, putting in a big effort, and he likely stopped looking where he was going and almost certainly stopped looking up the field, and he just crawled into the riders ahead of him. That's something that is human, and fathomable, but more than avoidable.

Some crashes are more stupid and preventable than others. And experience sometimes is required to avoid the stupidity. For some more than others. That is the natural course of human endeavor.

Of course I have done boneheaded things in a race. But when you learn the circumstances where that lightning is bound to strike, you can avoid many of them and at least not be the cause. Knowing that when you're blowing you get stupid is one of the biggies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
okay, lessee.

crime happens, get over it.

pollution happens, get over it.

terrorism happens, get over it.

cancer happens, get over it.

nuclear armageddon happens, get over it.

I THINK I GOT IT!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,745 Posts
The real dumb thing to do in a race is showing up without insurance.

We all know what we do is dangerous and crashes happen.

One little thing goes wrong an it hits the fan.

How is your medical coverage? Doctor visits are one thing but we're talking major trama coverage.

How about short term disability? Everyone needs this and you often need to purchase it yourself.


The other thing you need to do is keep your mouth shut. You admit fault after a crash and someone might hold you liable. Hey, its your words... And you might not want to mention to the doc that you were in a race. If that gets noted in your medical report your insurance company might go after the insurance from the event. Then you get to be 'the guy who messed it up for the rest of us' Yea local racing org. and events have coverage but its hard to get and the more claims that go in there the more difficult it is to get. No insurance = no racing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The other thing you need to do is keep your mouth shut. You admit fault after a crash and someone might hold you liable. Hey, its your words... And you might not want to mention to the doc that you were in a race. If that gets noted in your medical report your insurance company might go after the insurance from the event. Then you get to be 'the guy who messed it up for the rest of us' Yea local racing org. and events have coverage but its hard to get and the more claims that go in there the more difficult it is to get. No insurance = no racing.
I'm not sure that this is entirely reasonable. I have worried about insurance companies seeing that you were injured in a race, but not because of subrogation issues or primary insurance issues (the promoter's insurance typically declares itself secondary). More worry that they would put you on some double-secret high premium or non-insurability list for "high-risk activities." The rest of it -- I don't really think so. There have been cases where victims of particularly nasty turns of events have tried to impose liability on the venue or the participants, but reasonable care is not going to prevent boneheaded race maneuvers, which protects the venues, and participants have been universally protected in other than wilful situations. Participants do not assume the risk of someone else's trying to hurt them, but they are deemed to have assumed the normal risks inherent in the activity. Of course winning is one thing; getting sued is another, I suppose. But those types of claims happen far less often than people are inclined to believe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,808 Posts
I'm suprised the Reston Grand Prix (is that the official name) hasn't folded yet from medical professionals picking up riders at the nasty turn at the bottom of the course each race.



bill said:
I'm not sure that this is entirely reasonable. I have worried about insurance companies seeing that you were injured in a race, but not because of subrogation issues or primary insurance issues (the promoter's insurance typically declares itself secondary). More worry that they would put you on some double-secret high premium or non-insurability list for "high-risk activities." The rest of it -- I don't really think so. There have been cases where victims of particularly nasty turns of events have tried to impose liability on the venue or the participants, but reasonable care is not going to prevent boneheaded race maneuvers, which protects the venues, and participants have been universally protected in other than wilful situations. Participants do not assume the risk of someone else's trying to hurt them, but they are deemed to have assumed the normal risks inherent in the activity. Of course winning is one thing; getting sued is another, I suppose. But those types of claims happen far less often than people are inclined to believe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
that turn should not cause the problems it causes. Roger Friend went over the side on a solo break, which is really difficult to understand, until you remember that he has only one good eye.
I was not talking about actual turns, btw, but nasty turns of events -- as in a particularly bad injury resulting from the failure to put a hay bale or something against a pole close to the course. I think that riders have a right to expect those sorts of protections.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
I was in that race...

and the crash happened just behind me and to my right, so I didn't see it directly. After the race, I talked to the gentleman that the OP referenced, it seems he did rub tires and so the crash happened. That hill is not terribly steep, so the crash was no slow speed, hill climb, fall-over-on-your-side crash, in fact our "hero" ended up with 14 stitches in his head and a slight concussion for his inattention. In his defense, I believe the message he wrote was his attempt at a mea culpa, but he is not native U.S. (Belgian, by the way), so it is not as clear as I think he wanted it to be. I belive the crash happened because of the bunching that occured almost every lap at teh to of the incline, guys pushing to get to the top and then instead of keeping up that pace, slowing down. Granted, those behind are responsible for paying attention to what is happening up front.

BTW, Bill, he is in the 40+ race at Mayor's Downtown Classic, keep your eyes open ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
Judge not... and POOP happens!

bill said:
but here is an excerpt from an email sent out to the riders in my district that tells much about what is wrong with amateur racing. I was not there, I know not of what I speak, and I may be completely wrong. The guy may have been completely in the right, but you certainly can read this and consider it a particularly valiant effort to cover one's own fault, fault that carried consequences beyond just one rider.


I also would like to tell everyone involved in the crash that I am sorry
that this happened. There was just no way to avoid the rider in front
of me with the slowing down on top of the hill. These things just
happen and I hope everyone has a speedy recovery.

I don't know. It doesn't sound to me as if it "just happen[ed]."
It doesn't sound like you were there, so you shouldn't be passing judgement. From what others have said that were there, it sounds like the problem is more that the guy wasn't familiar with how to recover from rubbing tires with another rider. That took me out in my first race, too. You learn quickly after that... Maybe instead of publicly tearing this guy apart on a forum or steering clear of him in a race, you could befriend him and suggest you get a group of guys together to work on bumping drills, so you can all be more comfortable in a pack situation.

Poop happens in racing. People bump shoulders, get handlebars tangled, and rub wheels. People slam on brakes for no reason or swerve to avoid another rider, thereby moving into someone else's line. Instead of suggesting that everyone ride like complete gentlemen (which will never happen, especially not in a cat 4 field), suggest that everyone learn how to handle their own bike.

That and, always pray to the gods of upright bikes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
sianne said:
It doesn't sound like you were there, so you shouldn't be passing judgement. From what others have said that were there, it sounds like the problem is more that the guy wasn't familiar with how to recover from rubbing tires with another rider. That took me out in my first race, too. You learn quickly after that... Maybe instead of publicly tearing this guy apart on a forum or steering clear of him in a race, you could befriend him and suggest you get a group of guys together to work on bumping drills, so you can all be more comfortable in a pack situation.

Poop happens in racing. People bump shoulders, get handlebars tangled, and rub wheels. People slam on brakes for no reason or swerve to avoid another rider, thereby moving into someone else's line. Instead of suggesting that everyone ride like complete gentlemen (which will never happen, especially not in a cat 4 field), suggest that everyone learn how to handle their own bike.

That and, always pray to the gods of upright bikes.
man, are you for him/me, or agin him/me? because you're sending a very mixed message.
yeah there is contact in racing. and both sides of the equation should not panic. most times, there is a crash not because of the mistake but because of the reaction, or overreaction, I should say, to the mistake.
I was in a Cat 4 last lap p*ssy scrum. Road narrows going into the turn (and it's real narrow coming out of the turn). Guy cuts into my line from the inside. Or, that's my story, anyway. I just remember sensing the guy move into my line. Did he really? I think he did, but there was no contact; who knows? I did, however, scoot to the outside, and people went down, including me. Reaction or overreaction?
Probably an overreaction. That one always bothers me.
So, I know of what you speak. I also know that someone -- me, somebody -- in my example should have been kicking it so that the scrum did not happen. It's safer; it's better racing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
bill said:
man, are you for him/me, or agin him/me? because you're sending a very mixed message.
yeah there is contact in racing. and both sides of the equation should not panic. most times, there is a crash not because of the mistake but because of the reaction, or overreaction, I should say, to the mistake.
I was in a Cat 4 last lap p*ssy scrum. Road narrows going into the turn (and it's real narrow coming out of the turn). Guy cuts into my line from the inside. Or, that's my story, anyway. I just remember sensing the guy move into my line. Did he really? I think he did, but there was no contact; who knows? I did, however, scoot to the outside, and people went down, including me. Reaction or overreaction?
Probably an overreaction. That one always bothers me.
So, I know of what you speak. I also know that someone -- me, somebody -- in my example should have been kicking it so that the scrum did not happen. It's safer; it's better racing.
I'm neither for or against either of you. I didn't realize I had to choose sides, though I'm not sure how my message is "mixed".

In your example, you were forced to change your line. You and those who went down around you weren't prepared to deal with that. There's the mistake. Lines change all the time. You can't count on anyone to hold a line and you need to know who is around you and where you have an out at all times to protect yourself. Even if you did "kick it" as you say, you'd probably take out a few other folks who were forced to run you over. Do everything you can to keep yourself upright. Let others worry about themselves.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top