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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've followed this sport for 3 decades now and I just woke up to what this sport has become, or always was. And for you nay sayers and still hopeful, your awakening will occur. My last straw and final cave in came when a close friend just admitted to doping all the time. He's only a good regional racer, fast but not even a pro or anything, and what's worse he's a Cat 1 who races masters class often, doping all the time. No hope for a contract or future, just like how many guys you know. I guess all the rage is micro-dosing and he felt pressure because as hard as he trains, and magiclly can't keep up to fast guys all of a sudden, just beleives that's the norm.
Had a friend a few years ago trying to play division 2 football, everyones doing a cycle of roids, he does it too, just to keep up.
Back to cycling, I heard rumors of others, some even got caught, now I know.

I think it's funny that everyone yells "everyone is doping" then when one of them breaks the silence, and confesses. Then we disagree and yell "sour grapes" or a sick vindictive man.
So I'm watching the VS coverage of the history of the Pyrennes and then my heroes, now all dopers. Every name, every face a doper. Virenque, Pantani, Riis, etc. Fast foreword to Lance getting knocked off his bike surrounded by Dopers. Ullrich, Hamilton, Levi, Herras, Basso and Lance Every single one of them doped to the gills, even the near rotten guy down your and my block.
 

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thighmaster said:
I've followed this sport for 3 decades now and I just woke up to what this sport has become, or always was. And for you nay sayers and still hopeful, your awakening will occur. My last straw and final cave in came when a close friend just admitted to doping all the time. He's only a good regional racer, fast but not even a pro or anything, and what's worse he's a Cat 1 who races masters class often, doping all the time. No hope for a contract or future, just like how many guys you know. I guess all the rage is micro-dosing and he felt pressure because as hard as he trains, and magiclly can't keep up to fast guys all of a sudden, just beleives that's the norm.
Had a friend a few years ago trying to play division 2 football, everyones doing a cycle of roids, he does it too, just to keep up.
Back to cycling, I heard rumors of others, some even got caught, now I know.

I think it's funny that everyone yells "everyone is doping" then when one of them breaks the silence, and confesses. Then we disagree and yell "sour grapes" or a sick vindictive man.
So I'm watching the VS coverage of the history of the Pyrennes and then my heroes, now all dopers. Every name, every face a doper. Virenque, Pantani, Riis, etc. Fast foreword to Lance getting knocked off his bike surrounded by Dopers. Ullrich, Hamilton, Levi, Herras, Basso and Lance Every single one of them doped to the gills, even the near rotten guy down your and my block.
Bummer. I know that there are guys in my club that dope or have doped...lame! I have said it before...not sure if YOU read it though. I lose a connection to the pros as I watch them in their amazing efforts during the Spring Classics and TdF. I don't dope, so therefore I can not TOTALLY relate to what I am seeing happen in front of my own eyes. I guess you just need to look at it like professional bodybuilders. They are all on something, BUT still it is the hardest working genetically gifted that wins anyways. SORT OF admirable still right?
 

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rydbyk said:
They are all on something, BUT still it is the hardest working genetically gifted that wins anyways. SORT OF admirable still right?
Not always.
Modern doping using blood manipulation skews the results in a way that no amount of Pot Belge could ever do.
Hinault & Fignon both gave similar opinions on the dawn of the EPO age.
Hinault was reported to say that dope couldn't turn a donkey into a racehorse. Fignon commented that he knew things had changed fundamentally when there were riders climbing with him who had "no right to be there".
Speed, cortisone & testosterone have an effect but they were used in an amateur way and the associated risks were relatively low. On the other hand, EPO, HGH & blood transfusions have to be administered in a professional manner or there is a very real risk of death.
 

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I'm still relying on blind faith when it comes to my club. I chalk up superior performances to superior preparation and genetics.

I'm fat and out of shape (relatively speaking). I won my class (slow guys) in the local stage race this year, so I'm being bumped up a class for next season. To be honest, I'm going to be slaughtered. I have a good 50 lbs on some of those guys, and I can't sprint or climb worth a darn. The only place I can stay with them and actually do something is in a TT. Since I don't want to limit myself to TTs, I'm going to have to re-create myself physically and as a rider in order to hang.

Now a trip down to Mexico or wherever for a "doctor's advice" is a little more expensive for me than for some of you, so that isn't even a remote temptation. To be honest, I've idly thought about it (in the abstract). It seems to be the American way these days, looking for quick results without the work or sacrifice. Weight loss pills, liposuction, "EPO boost", whatever... and those are legal for the average person. Stepping across the line for a more-effective version so you can crush your enemies, Conan-style, seems like just a small moral/ethical jump for some people.

I know I used all sorts of products from Sports Legs to Endurox R4 to get a small boost in performance this year, so I could train harder and recover faster. The running joke with a riding buddy was that I was on the juice, because all of that training made me a much stronger rider. Am I a doper, even though all of the substances I used to gain an edge were "approved" by a governing body of some type and freely available? I don't think so, but it can be a slippery slope for a competitive-minded individual. I'm not saying Hammer products are gateway drugs, but eventually you plateau with this stuff and some people will do anything to keep climbing.

I don't know how I feel here. I don't think I'd risk my life/health and my family's security taking illegal PEDs just to win a pair of socks or whatever in a prime. However, I risk the same consequences every time I ride on a busy street or red-line on a hill climb. I've knocked 40lbs off my body and built a lot of muscle in the last couple years, which I feel kinda offsets the hazards of the road. Barring an accident or exercise-induced heart attack, I'll be around a long time if I can keep it up and drop more weight. I won't be the 145lb human lung I was 20 years ago, but I'll be closer than I am now. The competitive bastard in me is attracted to racing, and it's one of my big motivations to keep going. I don't like to be left behind. I'll make my eyeballs bleed before that happens. If the barriers to that PED temptation were removed? I can't honestly say. I don't want to know how far I would go for the "easy fix".

As far as the pro peloton goes, I just go with the assumption the all dope to one degree or another. Doping of one sort or another has always been a part of the sport at that level. You can argue that EPO was a game-changer, but to be honest I think it was more of the same thing. They will do what it takes to win (or like me, just to hang on to the pack). I still find things to admire about the pros, and I hope that the UCI is at least keeping the doping to a level where they're not dropping like flies like in the '90s and first part of the century.

Oh well, I'm just rambling here. I'm going to push away from the computer and go for a nice, long ride. My preparation for next year has already begun...
 

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Considering polls show 5%-7% of high school athletes using PED's...it's not really a big surprise is it? I knew a kid that was 12 and on roids (supplied by his father who was a doctor).

It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.

When people actually think that the pro field is clean...even part of it...I have to laugh. From the basic levels of the domestic pro's to the top levels of the elite pro's they are using PED's of one form or another. It's just a given to stay competitive with others and when it's what you make your living doing...you either use PED's or you find another way to make money.

This isn't rocket science...it's just reality and it's not just cycling. Look at any pro level sport: Golf, Tennis, Hockey, Football, Baseball, Soccer, etc. and you will find pretty much every player using some form of PED or another. What they are using may work better or worse than others...but they are using something to stay on the field and make money doing something they both love and are very good at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Go to USADA and see how few get caught. Lots of THC 3 month bans, I see the US track and field coach is guilty--what about the runners? Then you see a Ping Pong positive. Perhaps the list is only their positives. After my rant I talked to another local Cat 1 and he just stated that locally it's the guys who are pretty good, and then bang, they ride like they are playing with the rest. Equally I'm amazed at a few of the locals who are known potheads. Back in my highschool days I puffed a few, and the last thing I'd want to do is go out and TT. I can't imagine what it possibly coud do for performance. Jeez, to think of being beat by someone who just smoked a bowl.

I would like to add I'm a known fairly fast local master, and I'm 100% clean. I imagine I would climb in the doping boat if my job were on the line. So I don't hate anyone or think of myself as better, just sad. Well as the movie that started me in this lifestyle pointed out, "Everyone cheats". Guess I'll stay on the high road and know I did it the right way.
 

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Wookiebiker, I'm a high school teacher. I can tell you that its far more than 5-7% of high school athletes using drugs, at least in the strength sports like football and wrestling, and even perhaps some girl's sports like softball. I work out at the gym favored by one of my school's rivals athletes. I hear them all the time talking about what they're taking, what kind of a boost they're getting, and how much it costs. I should point out that two years ago, this rival school's starting offensive line was larger than USC's according to their own press guide. Yes, you heard that right. They're also from an extremely affluent area and can afford PEDs. I mentioned this to my school's former football coach (fired in part because he couldn't beat schools like this), and he just shook his head. He knows all about it, but barring a decision by our school district's leadership to actually dope test our athletes, nothing will change. He actually would like that to happen, but not only is there no money for widespread PED testing, no one wants to deal with the fallout when all of the positive test results become known.

Its extremely disheartening. Our coaches love working with kids, and I can vouch for their overall disapproval of PEDs. However, the kids want to take them for better abs and biceps (they'll get the girls), to win, but especially to get that athletic scholarship. The parents are also to blame. Many know that their kids are doping, and some help, based upon what I've heard them say in the gym. One dad is a doctor, from what I've overheard, and it wouldn't surprise me if that is his kid's PED funnel.

Way to take care of our kids...
 

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aptivaboy said:
Many know that their kids are doping, and some help, based upon what I've heard them say in the gym. One dad is a doctor, from what I've overheard, and it wouldn't surprise me if that is his kid's PED funnel.
While I can't say that I KNOW any parents who do, there are many whom I wouldn't be surprised if they told their kids to take PEDs -- rationalizing that it will help them get into a good school, get into the pro league after college, etc. Not to mention living vicariously through your offspring.
 

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I think you've got it right - they are living vicariously through their kids, the dads in particular. One guy a week ago was telling his son how he was going to bulk him up to knock the other kids around in soccer. The exact quote was, "You'll knock the other guy off of the ball. You''ll' get that red card, and it will be worth it."

I'm always amazed at how open it all is. In events or venues with no drug testing, why be shy about it?
 

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I know we laugh at a couple local/regional Masters widely held to be on the juice. Yay- you beat me by cheating- enjoy your shorter lifespan. Seeing USA Cycling barely tests any elite Masters, the level of cheating at the top is basically unknown. Same for triathlon- the level of dopers there (even less testing and more money) is probably staggering at the top end. :(
 

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Wookiebiker said:
...It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.
WHAT?! Dammit... that is depressing to hear, since I'm about to move up to Masters (from Novice).
Mebbe I need to look into a home blood-bagging kit or something? :eek:
(No, not really)

Wookiebiker said:
When people actually think that the pro field is clean...even part of it...I have to laugh. From the basic levels of the domestic pro's to the top levels of the elite pro's they are using PED's of one form or another. It's just a given to stay competitive with others and when it's what you make your living doing...you either use PED's or you find another way to make money.
Poo. I guess I've just been naive to think/hope that only some percentage were dirty. I guess some methods are "cleaner" than others? Or "less dirty" perhaps...
 

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I can't relate at all to the OP, but my 2 cents:

I never really regarded Greg LeMond was a nutjob or sour person. I'm well aware/consider him to be very bold in his accusations - and notably making off calculations on AC - but I always figured if I was in that same moment he'd (as well as Hinault and Fignon) describe...

...working his butt off to find previous (lesser) rivals close the performance gap in just a season and sometimes perform (impossibly) better than him, a defending Tour winner...

I'd be fixated on that issue forever - "scared" if you would call it so. There's a big difference between observing who says what/acts, and seeing facing first-hand. Never experienced the latter, but can only imagine how much more it sticks, and see why some people are so inclined to jumping on any lead they've got on a doper.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Lemond is another example. We ***** about all the dopers, he backs up the doping claims, and then we bash Lemond as some kind of nutjob. Patrick Sinkewitz, Rodriguez and Landis come to mind. I love how Landis lied to cover up his doping (expected). Now he comes clean and is a vindictive loonatic because he "lied" before. Give me a break. All these guys are telling the truth, get over it.
I would suspect that many, (Levi, Basso, Vino, etc) those who seemed to be Lance's next rivals and American hopefulls, riding fantastic, are now fairly clean. You can tell because they suck now. Where is Millar, Zabriske and if Hincapie. Sure they are still good, but not like before. Of course Micro-dosing will do that as well.
 

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Vino 4 Ever!

thighmaster said:
I would suspect that many, (Levi, Basso, Vino, etc) those who seemed to be Lance's next rivals and American hopefulls, riding fantastic, are now fairly clean. You can tell because they suck now.
Vino is as old as Lance and totally outdid him at this year's Tour. He actually gave a lot of younger riders a run for their money, and won LBL.



Oh, and Basso's had quite the successful comeback at the Giro.
 

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I'll tell you the thing that worries me, and I'm a Lance fan. When Greg started making apparently outlandish claims against Floyd Landis, everyone thought he was a nutcase. His on the stand testimony about child abuse only made him appear more bonkers, in the eyes of many. I mean, really - relevance? I was a Greg fan back in the day, and even I started thinking him slightly unstable.

But, do you know what? Greg was right. That is what terrifies me, here. Greg was right before with his claims. What if he's right, now? I hope he isn't, but I am worried.
 

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thighmaster said:
Lemond is another example.
Of a doper, yes. When Lemond and the Badger come clean (they are the last holdouts of that generation) maybe they be taken seriously in this regard.
 

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Ventruck said:
Vino is as old as Lance and totally outdid him at this year's Tour. He actually gave a lot of younger riders a run for their money, and won LBL
Better living through Doping, must be nice to control your country's cycling association.
 

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One of the best threads on RBR, ever... Wish I could contribute but I'm still learning about cycling and its history in general.
 

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Wookiebiker said:
It's also fairly well known that at any given masters race a good 1/2 the field is using one form of PED or another...many times prescribed by their doctor.
Citation needed.
 
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