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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Live Steam thinks that the kind of stereotypes promoted by the Sopranos is just as bad.

I disagree on the basis that while both are unsavory, the degree and duration of hatred and violence perpetrated against Jews (beginning with and largely based on the the Blood Libel) makes it more than just another example of man's inhumanity to man.


Live Steam said:
(You my friend are) an idiot! I see that only your pain and perceived ills have any validity. Bias and hatred are experienced by many more groups other than just Jews. I am sorry that the bias I mentioned (against Italian-Americans - cz) doesn't meet you threshold of injustice.

Maybe the guy down the hall isn't so far off. He always says the Jews only care about themselves and that is why they suffer so much at the hands of others. He's Jewish by the way!

<a href="http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?postid=10789#poststop">http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?postid=10789#poststop</a>
 

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degree?

czardonic said:
Live Steam thinks that the kind of stereotypes promoted by the Sopranos is just as bad.

I disagree on the basis that while both are unsavory, the degree and duration of hatred and violence perpetrated against Jews (beginning with and largely based on the the Blood Libel) makes it more than just another example of man's inhumanity to man.
Could be just a matter of degree, but all the same type of problem. I think there is no doubt that anti-Semitism was brought to the forefront of the minds of everyone on the planet because of the Nazi's. But for that, would it be such a big issue?

Didn't the Jews have some problems with the Egyptians prior to Jesus? (assuming "anti-Semitism" really means anti-Jews)
 

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I said ...

bias is bias and hatred is hatred. What individual is capable of measuring another's pain or suffering? Is the plight of the Jews worse than the suffering Black's endure? Is the Palestinian's worse? How about the bigotry faced by millions of emigrants from many countries and of different faiths? What about the American Indians? How do we measure this? By the amount of people effected? By the duration? Can it be measured? Does some art offend others?

This discussion is more about censurship than what you want to turn it into. That's where it started. You believe it is OK to silence someone beceuse you feel pained by the message. I said people of other faiths and color feel pain from this type of thing too, yet it is allowed and promoted every day by many different legal entities. Hollywood does this all the time. Artists do it all of the time.

czardonic said:
Live Steam thinks that the kind of stereotypes promoted by the Sopranos is just as bad.

I disagree on the basis that while both are unsavory, the degree and duration of hatred and violence perpetrated against Jews (beginning with and largely based on the the Blood Libel) makes it more than just another example of man's inhumanity to man.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The Holocaust was preceded by generations of organized violence and persecution of European Jews (and followed by more of the same). Thus, I don't consider anti-semitism a Nazi problem, and had they never existed, my I distinction would still stand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I don't have a problem ranking (in descending order) genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, social stigmatization and "emotional pain". Why is this so difficult for you?
 

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but here?

czardonic said:
I don't have a problem ranking (in descending order) genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, social stigmatization and "emotional pain". Why is this so difficult for you?
My understanding is that Jews in the U.S. enjoy very high social standing, and have never been the subject of genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, or even social stigmatization (other than by a few bigots). I hate to stereotype, too, but my actual experiense (not really a stereotype) is that every person I have known to be Jewish was very well regarded in the community.
 

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Again that isn't what this is about

We are talking about censorship. You say it's OK because you happen to be personally offended by it. I say others are also offended at times in the name of art, yet are chided as boorish book burners and drolls. I say you are a hypocrite because of this double standard! It's obvious being a hypocrite has nothing to do with one's faith!


czardonic said:
I don't have a problem ranking (in descending order) genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, social stigmatization and "emotional pain". Why is this so difficult for you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
You are talking about censorship. I am not suggesting that anything be censored. I am not much concerend about people taking offence to expression (much less so than you, I guaruntee).

I just think that while Gibson is entitled to his view, he and his defenders should take responsibility for those and for the precedent of violence that their views have engendered rather than pretending that this movie is just another POV that will inevitably offend someone. This isn't about selective political correctness any more than this is just any POV. If Gibson is as scrupulous a historian as he claims to be, he must know that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You claim that Jews have never been targeted in the US, or for no more than social stigmatization by a "few" bigots?
 

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What censorship?

Live Steam said:
bias is bias and hatred is hatred. What individual is capable of measuring another's pain or suffering? Is the plight of the Jews worse than the suffering Black's endure? Is the Palestinian's worse? How about the bigotry faced by millions of emigrants from many countries and of different faiths? What about the American Indians? How do we measure this? By the amount of people effected? By the duration? Can it be measured? Does some art offend others?

This discussion is more about censurship than what you want to turn it into. That's where it started. You believe it is OK to silence someone beceuse you feel pained by the message. I said people of other faiths and color feel pain from this type of thing too, yet it is allowed and promoted every day by many different legal entities. Hollywood does this all the time. Artists do it all of the time.
Steam, Czar, Doug,

I assume that this thread came out of the passionate discussion on "The Passion of Jesus Christ" please correct me if I am wrong.

Steam, ne thinks your use of the word censorship rather "Liberal." I can't point to individual posts but I get the impression you mingle criticism and its synonyms with cesorship a lot. Mel Gibson is criticized, his film is criticized. Unless you have some inside knowledge on how the studios or distribution company said to him "Change these lines or else no release" then where is the censorship? Seriously, how is anyone silencing Mr. Gibson. He made the film with his money. If that does not buy you independence that how is any film not censored?

I don't recall any posters saying Jews suffered more than group X? I certainly did not mean to imply that. I can state as a fact that Jews suffered a lot and I empathize with that suffering. I was hoping you could too. Then extract from that empathy some understanding of this "hyper-sensitivity." I think your post demonstrate that you can empathize with Jewish suffering, nay all suffering, but you seem not to make the second jump.

Put another way, if Mr Gibson presented a less menacing dipiction of the Jewish mob and high priest, would his piece of art be any less moving, less inspiring, or the Christian suffering one iota more? The better choice, if Mr. Gibson was aware of one, is clear to me.

Doug Sloan said:

Could be just a matter of degree, but all the same type of problem. I think there is no doubt that anti-Semitism was brought to the forefront of the minds of everyone on the planet because of the Nazi's. But for that, would it be such a big issue?

Didn't the Jews have some problems with the Egyptians prior to Jesus? (assuming "anti-Semitism" really means anti-Jews)
Agreed that they are all the same type of problem. Precisely why many Jewish leaders feel that Hollocost is not just a Jewish issue, but merely the best documented, most systematic, and one of the most horrific incidence of bigotry in general and anti-Semitism in particular. That is why many modern Jewish thinkers use it as a modern interpretation of the "Choosen people", "Light upon the nations" concepts.

But for the Nazis, Jews have bee historically submissive. Jews accepted for centuries the status of segragated second class citizens as long as they were allowed to practice their religeon. They learned to put out a glass of white wine on the porch during Passover lest anyone uses red wine as evidence that they murdered young boys and were drinking the blood in their rejection of Christ. In short, they just wanted to be left alone.

The Nazis made clear that this passive acceptance equals extermination. Hence the creation of a "Jewish homeland", hence the vow to never stay silent, why Jews can be so "noisy". This is also why Jews marched for Civil Rights in the South, why you see Jews volunteer to escort Palestinian ambulances past Israeli checkpoints.

Doug, for clarifying for me precisely why Jews are so vigilant against perceived anti-Semitism. And you're right, anti-Semitism does not mean anti-Jewish, but in the context of The Passion...

I know I should leave this alone but here goes. No doubt some ancient Egyptians must have suffered unjustly at the hand of the Jews who took the story too literally. But do you have any more recent examples of such bigotry. Otherwise I don't quite see the point.
 

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Never is a long time Doug

As an example,

The loca community of La Jolla informally barred Jews form living there. My understanding is that the was some sort of code between real estate agents and sellers, and managed to keep Jewish residents out. It took the University of California, who needed to recruit Jewish faculty, to change that.

If you look hard enough, I am sure you can find examples of Jews being barred from Ivy league schools, though probably not in this century.

Many Jews came to this country after WWII, and carry with them personal memories of persecution at the hands of some Christians. Don't know if you count them or not.

I am sure if you care I can ask around and provide more examples or provide more detail. However, I agree with you that in general Jews have been treated better in the U.S. than in any other society during the last two millenia except for modern Israel.


DougSloan said:
My understanding is that Jews in the U.S. enjoy very high social standing, and have never been the subject of genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, or even social stigmatization (other than by a few bigots). I hate to stereotype, too, but my actual experiense (not really a stereotype) is that every person I have known to be Jewish was very well regarded in the community.
 

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If you want to change the issue, how about the genocide, cruelty, ...

torture, disenfranchisement and emotional pain that the Iraqi people suffered at the hands of Saddam? Why don't you support the efforts of the US, GB and the other coalition nations in freeing these people from this oppression and horror? Kind of strange of you to be on the other side of the fence on this, isn't it?

czardonic said:
I don't have a problem ranking (in descending order) genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, social stigmatization and "emotional pain". Why is this so difficult foru?
 

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Here's an example

DougSloan said:
My understanding is that Jews in the U.S. enjoy very high social standing, and have never been the subject of genocide, slavery, political disenfranchisement, or even social stigmatization (other than by a few bigots).
None other than Grouch Marx was denied membership in a pool club once, and that was well after he had become famous. His daughter was quite disappointed, and the story goes that he said to the owner of the club "She's only half Jewish-can't she just go into the water only up to her waist"?
 

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Such tragedy .....

getting turned away from a country club because of your religion. Gee I seem to recall people getting turned away because they were Catholic and or Italian, too. I also remember hearing about that black family that was denied membership. Heck my Mom told me when she was in college, her girlfriend was not admitted into the movie theater because she was black and it had no balcony seating for her to use. Life can be a ***** at times.


Dave_Stohler said:
None other than Grouch Marx was denied membership in a pool club once, and that was well after he had become famous. His daughter was quite disappointed, and the story goes that he said to the owner of the club "She's only half Jewish-can't she just go into the water only up to her waist"?
 

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FWIW - Saudi bans Jews

TROUBLED KINGDOM
Saudi tourism: No Jews please
Islamic nation opens to holiday travelers, but not all

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 27, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Saudi Arabia will begin issuing tourist visas for the first time, bringing more attention to its restrictive policies, which include banning Jews.

Travel to the desert kingdom has been limited to business, employment, pilgrimages and specially approved visits, but in the next several weeks a new tourism law will be enacted, reports Arab News, an official English-language newspaper.

The government says it plans to set up a national council for tourism to promote the country in world markets.

But on the Supreme Commission for Tourism's website is a list of those who are not allowed in the county: [Editor's note: Since this story was posted early this morning, the Saudi commission has edited the page. Here is how it originally appeared. This is the current version.]


An Israeli passport holder or a passport that has an Israeli arrival/departure stamp.

Those who don't abide by the Saudi traditions concerning appearance and behaviors.

Those under the influence of alcohol ... .

Jewish People
The website also says if a woman arrives in the country alone, "the sponsor or her husband must receive her at the airport."

"Every woman must have confirmed accommodation for the duration of her stay in the Kingdom," the rules say.

Also, "A woman is not allowed to drive a car and can therefore only travel by car if she is accompanied by her husband, a male relative or a driver."

Saudi Prince Abdul Aziz told Arab News the government expects the tourist industry to create 1.5 million to 2.3 million new jobs for young Saudis by 2020.

"There are more than 10,000 tourist attractions in the Kingdom," he said.

A college for tourist and hotel management is under construction and the government has plans for 50,000 new hotel rooms.

Saudi writers also have called for opening up the Kingdom to foreign tourists, the Arab News said.

"Foreign tourists would love to enjoy swimming, tanning and water sports in our warm seas in fall and winter, and all-year activities like mountaineering, hiking, car racing and conferences," wrote Dr. Khaled M. Batarfi of Al-Madinah newspaper.

For Saudis and expatriates, however, the U.S. State Department paints a dark picture of life, stating in its human-rights report the Islamic government has "prohibited or restricted freedom of speech, the press, assembly, association, religion and movement."

The State Department's annual report on religious freedom says bluntly, "freedom of religion does not exist in Saudi Arabia."

In its May report, the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom said "Saudi Arabia is a uniquely repressive case where the government forcefully and almost completely limits the public practice or expression of religion to one interpretation: a narrow and puritanical version of Islam based on the Wahhabi doctrine."
 

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Not just Europe, also in the Middle East. Going back for many many years, entire populations of Sephardic Jews were killed in Moslem States.

Also recently in Argentina violence in the form of destroying two buildings full of people was perpetrated. This was done by the Provincial Police of Buenos Aires. Also in Africa, a hotel full of Tourists were killed.

Any form of intentional killing or terror is wrong. People should not rationalize it away to say that other groups have suffered. The important thing is that NO group should suffer such actions.

P.S. It is naive to believe Jews are not targeted in the US. There have been desecration to places of worship, as well as a bombing of a temple in 1958.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Is this the best you could come up with? You think that patronizing a politically useful group (one who's torture you ingnored for decades, BTW) excuses ambivalence about a millenias long campaign of terror against another?

I don't support Bush's war because I don't trust him to build a free country in Iraq. When the country is inevitably lost to a Muslim theocracy or handed over to an America friendly strongman, you will no doubt revert to claiming that Islam and democracy are incompatible, <i>just as all you Republicans were claiming in 2001</i>.
 

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So the hell with the people of Iraq and ...

the pain they suffered. It doesn't agree with your politics so screw them! And of course they didn't suffer long enough so they don't merit any sympothy from you! It's clear only the Jews rate in the suffering department.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I will remember you accusation of pro-Jewish bias the next time you accuse me of being anti-semetic for not supporting Ariel Sharon.

You sound just like Flip Flash -- assuming that everyone subscribes to the same demented "logic" that motivates you personally. If I thought like you, I <i>would</i> be a hypocrite (as you certainly are). But my concern about Gibson's movie has nothing to do with personal sympathies. You prefer to indulge yourself in self-serving delusions of persecution. I am concerned a about real world, precedented phenomena of violence and recognized incitements thereof.
 

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At least Flip Flash's demented logic is consistent.

Live Steam's all over the board depending on which argument best supports the Republican line. He can argue one side or another with equal demeted logic. He has a little problem with this one though since the Bushies and their neo-conservative masters are deeply in the pockets of the Zionists.
 
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