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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is Icing beneficial to recovery even if im not getting any pain or inflammation. My osteopath told me to ice my knees after my workouts. My knees are getting better and giving me less and less problems, and less and less pain. Its almost getting to the point where pain and inflammation has eliminated.

I wont see my osteo for a few weeks and was wondering if icing would benefit me even if there is no discomfort, pain or inflammation.

I have a patella tracking problem (patella misalignment) which was causing some inflammation, but my osteo says its more agitated than anything. There was never any noticeable swelling or heating up, but there was some pain, discomfort, and weakness.
 

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Two scoops of inertia.
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stretching does a lot of that. and if you are training it's possible that you are isolating muscle groups to improve the q angle of the knee so that eventuallythe irritation caused by a maltracking patella could be lessened as well. I never understood the icing thing. Inflamation is part of the body's reparative process. Muscle building is a response to microtrauma. One would think that icing would interfere with this. I'd love an explanation for that concept.
 

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It's not easy being green
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Ice baths

My husband swears by them(and in them!). If you can get past the initial shock, he was training for tri's and after a hard workout would take one. No soreness ever.
 

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F1000SL
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Is good after hard workouts

during the first 72 hrs, to control the(over) response to the trauma, after that heat will aid the recovery even more.
Some people use it before workout to aid the warmup, so backwards but I guess it works, havent tried it.
 

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It's an old standby remedy, for good reason. Connective tissue injury is aggravated by inflammation after trauma, which is what exercise is doing to your injured knees. (Even though inflammation is a natural response to injury, like a lot of bodily responses it goes overboard sometimes, and often has harmful side effects) Cold inhibits the inflammatory response.

Heat later can promote healing, and (a little) heat prior to exercise can make things more flexible and reduce the risk of injury.

Go to a baseball locker room after a game. You'll likely see the pitcher with his elbow plunged into a tub of ice water, and a big ice bag on his shoulder. The next day he'll put heat on it, and three days later he'll start another game.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dr. Placebo said:
stretching does a lot of that.
What did you mean by this ? Helps with recovery, or causes misalignment of the patella ?

Dr. Placebo said:
and if you are training it's possible that you are isolating muscle groups to improve the q angle of the knee so that eventuallythe irritation caused by a maltracking patella could be lessened as well. I never understood the icing thing. Inflamation is part of the body's reparative process. Muscle building is a response to microtrauma. One would think that icing would interfere with this. I'd love an explanation for that concept.
Can you please explain the bolded bit. Also when you say training, do you mean weight training or the actual cycling, or both ?

Its only very early days but yes im doing some resistance training. Im currently doing leg extensions with my feet slightly pointed out to work the inner quad. Iv now also started doing a few sets of unweighted half squats using just the bar. Iv been doing a fair bit of quad and IT band stretch. I think stretching alone may have helped a good deal.

Before that I was doing some basic squeezing of both quads trying to contract both inner and outer quadricep. Then I would put my feet pointed outward a bit and do 5 second squeezes. I was taking it a step further and would apply good pressure (squeeze push) to even slightly raise my bum a bit. So it was a big step between the first and second treatment we had. She said I made good progress and told me she wanted to see how I go with a 5 k bike ride. What surprised me was that she wanted to get me started on leg presses, extensions and squats. She said start with the leg extensions, and if im getting pain she can show me how to tape them up. She said we have to work on strengthening the muscles and keep doing the original exercise as well as the stretches. A week ago she said come back in 2 or 3 weeks. I couldn't be happier with the progress Im making.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
moab63 said:
during the first 72 hrs, to control the(over) response to the trauma, after that heat will aid the recovery even more.
Some people use it before workout to aid the warmup, so backwards but I guess it works, havent tried it.
Thanks for the response.

But don't go using ice before hand. As a warm up you need heat :) so who ever is icing before, shouldn't be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Dr. Placebo said:
stretching does a lot of that. and if you are training it's possible that you are isolating muscle groups to improve the q angle of the knee so that eventuallythe irritation caused by a maltracking patella could be lessened as well. I never understood the icing thing. Inflamation is part of the body's reparative process. Muscle building is a response to microtrauma. One would think that icing would interfere with this. I'd love an explanation for that concept.
Interesting you say that. I found this.

How ice works

When tissue is damaged, the body responds with a complex array of chemical and neurological changes collectively known as “inflammation.” For instance, the capillaries expand dramatically to bring extra oxygen and nutrients to the area. They also become more permeable, to allow the easy passage of immune system cells.

Inflammation is essential to healing. It is pure physiological goodness — a machine finely-tuned by evolution to optimize recovery, just as a fever is an effective physiological process for fighting infection (indeed, they are closely related processes). Strictly speaking, if you to want to heal as fast as possible, then don’t interfere with inflammation!

Inflammation is pure physiological goodness, finely-tuned by evolution to optimize recovery.

Unfortunately, like most biological processes, our comfort is not really a priority. In fact, quite the opposite — inflammation is partly evolved to be painful. Cavemen didn’t have ibuprofen and ice, nor did they have the benefit of understanding the inflammatory process. Generally speaking, it was all for the good of the species — indeed, for all animals — if inflammation was super painful, and left to run its course like a fever.

But for modern humans, inflammation is … well, it’s overkill. We can afford to “turn it down.”

Cold slows metabolic activity, numbs nerve endings, constricts capillaries. It limits and controls inflammation. It makes it hurt less. It helps us get through the day.
 

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n00bsauce
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It helps to give a source when you post quotes. Otherwise it's just somebody's babble. How can the reader judge the veracity of the statement?
 

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www.pponline.co.uk - I subscribe to their Peak Performance newsletter, which is basically a bunch of articles written for layman coaches and athletes, summarizing and digesting the latest research into useful info.

I like it because they footnote well and you can look up the original peer-reviewed articles (or at least the abstracts).

One recent issue was about icing / ice baths. To net it out, they feel good, anecdotal is good, but no real scientific evidence is yet available.
 

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Two scoops of inertia.
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gettingbackonsaddle said:
What did you mean by this ? Helps with recovery, or causes misalignment of the patella ?

Can you please explain the bolded bit. Also when you say training, do you mean weight training or the actual cycling, or both ?
Part of the issue with a maltracking patella is that the the articulating surface of the patella exerts excess friction on tissues of the joint due to its placement. Consider that the patella exists within the tendon of the quadriceps that inserts on the tibia. Stretching well before/after exercising can reduce the tension in the muscle that causes it to maltrack.

Everything you describe doing is consistant with what I've known about the matter. I'm glad it's working for you. Could I step out and ask if you have flat feet?

As far as inflammation, that very much is the way it works. It's part of the healing process period. You need a vascular response for repair. I understand the concept of mediation of pain, but I've always wondered if regular icing wasn't counterproductive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Dr. Placebo said:
Part of the issue with a maltracking patella is that the the articulating surface of the patella exerts excess friction on tissues of the joint due to its placement. Consider that the patella exists within the tendon of the quadriceps that inserts on the tibia. Stretching well before/after exercising can reduce the tension in the muscle that causes it to maltrack.

Everything you describe doing is consistant with what I've known about the matter. I'm glad it's working for you. Could I step out and ask if you have flat feet?

As far as inflammation, that very much is the way it works. It's part of the healing process period. You need a vascular response for repair. I understand the concept of mediation of pain, but I've always wondered if regular icing wasn't counterproductive.
Thanks for the response. I have been stretching before and after, and it seems to be working. I don't have flat feet like i always thought i had, but my feet don't roll very well, and I get some pain in the shin with fast or long walking. Even this has improved and almost went away completely by focusing on my walking more and walking better. I can now walk for an hour which i havnt been able to do in a very long time. However the other day I was feeling it in the shin again for some reason.

Everything is going well, but i have been doing my leg extensions and unweighted bar squats with heavy duty knee sleeves. Im talking the really duty ones used for heavy squats and dead lifts. There very thick rubber and can be used by power lifters. I even take my rides with them on. This is why I don't want to get too excited too early. I have some sports use knee sleeves on the way so i'll see how i go with them.

My concern is that im taking a supplement called Cissus quadrangularis, generally known and referred to as "Cissus". Its claimed to support tendons, ligament, bones and cartilage. There is also evidence on fracture healing. Its also anabolic to bone growth and does not inhibit protein synthesis like Ibuprofin does. Since it has analgesic effects, im concerned that maybe its starting to take away the pain but possibly hindering the healing process. (or maybe im being paranoid thinking my overall sudden prorgess in recovery is too good to be true). The problem is the evidence on it is simply a summation and not even the abstract, i cant seem to find the actual studies in relation to bone, tendon, ligament and cartilage. I think I have enough on fracture healing which was based on rats, and there is also good evidence on fat lose. Im currently looking it up atm. I cant simply go by ancedotal evidence which has a lot of people telling some surprising story's on bodybuilding forums, although there is some great ancedotal evidence.

As for icing, having looked into it a bit better and being more educated on the subject, i think i will only ice when i need to. On the other hand I wonder if the increased recovery stands to reason. I think if you shouldn't mess with inflammation, I wont unless i really have it. I'll take it as is comes and i'll get my osteos opinion on it.
 
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