Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 64 Posts

· Banned
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
There is much talk on this forum about "cheating" and "doping". But do we all really understand what cheating and doping truly is? Remember the "principals and ethics" are the same for minor "cheating and doping" as they are for major cheating and doping.


"There is doping and then there is doping" Twice busted Eddy Mercyx


I am not "pro doping" by the way...but I am a realist.



How many of you think cheating is only about "breaking the rules"? Cheating runs much deeper than this.

If you take anything that has an enhancing affect on your performance other than food and water then you are doping, and if the others guys do not, then you are "cheating" ,and it doesn't matter if the stuff you take is "legal".

How many of you take Caffeine before a race? It is a fairly powerful stimulant and has fairly good glycogen sparing properties in the first 45-60 minutes of a race. Not everyone is taking 5-9mg of Caffeine per kilo(a large strong 16 OZ coffee like at Starbucks) an hour or two before races....so if you take it you are "cheating".You have an unfair advantage over those that don't use this drug.

What about you guys that can afford 15 pound bikes for hill climb races.....not everyone can afford these bikes? How many of you say the hell with the minimum weight restriction and ride a 12 pound bike? Do you not have an "unfair" advantage? The bike weights is "stretching" things a bit :)...but I put it there to make people think....especially those that race a bike well under the minimum weight...and there are plenty.

What about you sprinters that take Creatine. It helps a fair bit doesn't it? It can help in a crit and especially in track sprinting. Don't you think that is doping?

What about you guys that use a certain herb, yes herb, and you guys know who you are, that will increase crit by up to 5 points if you take enough of it for a long time with a little iron supplementation. No it's not epo nor any variant of epo. Isn't that doping? Aren't you "cheating"? But it's not on the banned list so it isn't cheating some will say..HA! Some will say it's not a drug....it sure the heck is guys...just because it grows in soil doesn't mean it's not a drug.

What about you guys that can afford to use a hypoxic(altitude) tent at night while sleeping to simulate the Oxygen concentration at 10,000 feet.....that can give you a 3 or maybe even 5 point increase in crit...and if you then use "the herb" too you might even get to 50% from a highly trained aerobic athletes 39-43 crit. Is that doping...is that cheating? You are raising your epo level above what you normally have... ethically it's absolutely no different than if you used exogenous epo to do the same.

What about you guys that have the financial security and or job portability to allow you to relocate to a town at 9,000 feet? Are you not getting a little red cell boost advantage? hmmm

What about you guys 35 and up that are on HRT for testosterone or both test and HGH. You have youthful levels of these hormones for health and disease prevention reasons but should you race in the masters divisions with this "unfair" advantage. Are you not doping if you race?

Life is not fair now is it....nor is it "fair" at any level of sport.


So don't get too mad at these pro's guys. They have additional temptation...they are all dreaming about getting very rich if they preform really well, and it doesn't matter what there sport is...so they don't have to live a life of financial mediocrity at best when they retire.


As long as millions are to be made in sport doping simply cannot stop, and we delude ourselves to think otherwise. If the world wants clean pro's in any sport then take away the potential to make really big money. But alas, it isn't going to happen in this world because pro sport is a creation of our corrupt world.

OK...flame away :)

Cheers

"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."
Jacques Anquetil

"Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise abroad?" President, Charles de Gaulle on Anquetil


“It’s like when you’re driving. The law says there’s a speed limit of 100 km/h, but everyone is driving at 120 km/h. Why should I be the one who obeys the speed limit? So I had two options: either fit in and go along with the others or go back to being a house painter.” Alex Zulle

Then DeCanio says this:
“Clinger told me that while he was racing in 2002 on the United States Postal Service Pro Cycling Team he used HGH, testosterone and EPO along with Floyd Landis. David told me, and I quote, 'Landis used more HGH than anyone he had ever witnessed before. He would use entire vials of HGH and he is crazy.' ”

Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters ....an instant-message session that is on file.
"Johan and Lance dumped Floyd's rest day blood refill down the toilet in front of him in last year's tour to make him ride bad."
 

· Ron&Fez XM202/Sirius197
Joined
·
485 Posts
You wont get a flame from me.....

I realized something, I got in some back and forth arguments with you, lookrider, blackhat ect....I asked ya about your feeling with doping. Seems like we agree on some things. Doping will never go away. Somebody will always look for an "edge". I liked your answer about legalizing it all but reporting what they use. Monitor your levels and have safe limits.
Bryan
 

· Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
Realgains said:
Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters ....an instant-message session that is on file.
"Johan and Lance dumped Floyd's rest day blood refill down the toilet in front of him in last year's tour to make him ride bad."

i would love to see that IM conversation
 

· Banned
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
jim392 said:
and i would love to know what herb your talking about

Doper he he he:eek:

I have been asked to not tell anyone about "the herb" by some pro cyclists....I have to respect that request. But trust me ...it isn't fun taking the amount of "herb" that is needed to jack your crit perhaps 4 points if you are lucky. WADA is so F-ed up that they ban the herb if too many guys know about it.

Cheers
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,375 Posts
Realgains said:
What about you guys that can afford 15 pound bikes for hill climb races.....not everyone can afford these bikes? How many of you say the hell with the minimum weight restriction and ride a 12 pound bike? Do you not have an "unfair" advantage?
And those darn people who have the time and motivation to train. What about them? Don't they have an unfair advantage over those too busy or lazy to work harder? And don't even start on tactics. How do we take care of those who seem to know which is the best wheel to follow or which breaks have the best chance of working?

And isn't what you say about caffeine equally applicable to food and water. I think people who eat properly before a race and then eat and hydrate during the event should face the same two year ban as an illegal drug user; no wait, lifetime bans for everyone.

Total rubbish.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
asgelle said:
And those darn people who have the time and motivation to train. What about them? Don't they have an unfair advantage over those too busy or lazy to work harder? And don't even start on tactics. How do we take care of those who seem to know which is the best wheel to follow or which breaks have the best chance of working?

And isn't what you say about caffeine equally applicable to food and water. I think people who eat properly before a race and then eat and hydrate during the event should face the same two year ban as an illegal drug user; no wait, lifetime bans for everyone.

Total rubbish.
Yeah...my post is going to piss some guys off.

How can you put caffeine, a stimulant and glycogen sparing DRUG, in the same "ball park" as food and water, hard work, training, tactics etc etc.
It's dope friend...plain and simple. Sure it's mild but it's still dope. I know many guys that don't use caffeine for that very reason. I also have Mormon friends that think it's a very bad drug.

I recommend that you read the very large article in national geographic last year about Caffeine.

The world has told you that caffeine is fine so you believe it.

My post is not total rubbish. Why not comment on all the points mentioned in my post.. I admit that the part about the bike weights is "stretching" things a bit...but I put it there to make people think....especially those that race a bike well under the minimum weight...and there are plenty.

"There is doping and then there is doping" Twice busted Eddy Mercyx

Cheers
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,375 Posts
Realgains said:
How can you put caffeine, a stimulant and glycogen sparing DRUG, in the same "ball park" as food and water, hard work, training, tactics etc etc.
Well let's see, what do they have in common? They're all external aids, they all make the rider go faster, they're all legal under the rules. Works for me.

See I'm simple. I can't follow all these super-secret double-probation unwritten bylaw codes. All I can do is look at the rule book and see what is allowed and what is prohibited.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
asgelle said:
Well let's see, what do they have in common? They're all external aids, they all make the rider go faster, they're all legal under the rules. Works for me.

See I'm simple. I can't follow all these super-secret double-probation unwritten bylaw codes. All I can do is look at the rule book and see what is allowed and what is prohibited.
Can I pm you and give you a list of stuff that is not on the list that will significantly increase your performance on the bike, and more than caffeine.....it wouldn't be cheating or doping because they are not on "the list".

You have a pro's mind friend....if it's not on the list it's not doping. he he he

I am not trying to flame or ridicule you....I just want you to take your thought a tad deeper
:)

Cheers
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,375 Posts
Realgains said:
Can I pm you and give you a list of stuff that is not on the list that will significantly increase your performance on the bike, and more than caffeine.....it wouldn't be cheating or doping because they are not on "the list".
I think you need to re-read the prohibited list. You don't seem to understand what is and is not banned.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Realgains said:
Can I pm you and give you a list of stuff that is not on the list that will significantly increase your performance on the bike, and more than caffeine.....it wouldn't be cheating or doping because they are not on "the list".
Hell YES! Oh wait; damn, you weren't referring to all of the readers.

I get your post, and have to agree with it. Funny, I've sometimes said to myself "uh, what about the dudes with light bikes versus heavy bikes?" Especially after there was some discussion about bikes that would have to contain ballast to be UCI legal. And, talking to a former pro, he has helped me put the term "cheating" in perspective. On car enthusiast forums, there are similar discussions about performance via all-motor means, and "cheating" with turbos and NOx. Could add octane levels in that argument, as well as brands of intake filters (or no filter), etc.

I suppose, ultimately, the governing body will determine what is cheating and what is not. Sure would be cool to exploit the things that aren't (yet), though!
 

· Banned
Joined
·
2,241 Posts
Realgains said:
Maybe I am a bit "thick" but I don't get your point.
You would not be the first who did not understand him. Some subscribe to another version of reality that is often difficult to communicate to mere mortals.:thumbsup:

Perhaps the best part of your post was the quote by Zulle.

"Either fit in and go along with the others or go back to being a house painter"

Cycling in the states is a sport for rich dentists, in the rest of the world it is what people do to avoid working in a coal mine or carpet mill. If your choice is the needle or crawling down a dark hole which would you choose?

Legalizing, or regulating, doping usage is a big challenge, but many would say this is essentially what the UCI did until 2005. The biggest challenge is the sport no longer is about who is able to train the best but who responds the best, and has the best access, to dope.

There is dope and there is DOPE. Some aids have significant advantages over others. You can drink all the Red Bull and vitamins you want but the guy on EPO wins.

In the long run the best we can do is attempt to change the culture of the sport. JV, Bob Stapleton, and many of the French teams have made great strides in a short time....but long term do they really have a chance against the far greater forces trying to keep the sport, and society in general, as it always has been?
 

· Banned
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
bigpinkt said:
...but long term do they really have a chance against the far greater forces trying to keep the sport, and society in general, as it always has been?
Yeah, the world, and thus our dear sport at the pro level, is all about money and sex, but money trumps sex. Win in pro cycling and you have both money and sex....ask Cipo

This is what the riders are working ...copy and paste..a picture says a million words.

http://www.grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/05cipo2/$file/9.jpg
 

· Banned
Joined
·
3,262 Posts
Interesting perspective from Realgains.

I enjoyed what he wrote here and on another thread.

It seems to me that he's saying, in the final analysis, it's most important to be honest with yourself. At least that's the way I look at things.

I myself think there is entirely too much emphasis put on sports and that's not because I couldn't cut it. I wrestled and my father was an elite wrestler, 2nd in the National AAU's and champion of many college tournaments. I had the physical ability, probably better than my father, but my mental aspect was lacking, especially as a teenager. I was more like my mother, my sister got my father's aggressiveness and volatile temper.

Wrestling is nuts. You weigh 126lbs at about 3 to 5% body fat and you have to lose 12 pounds in two days to make 114, that's insane, and yet the regular MO of high school and college teams and coaches across the country. Your skin on your stomach is about the same thickness as the skin on the back of your hand and you're going to drop over 10lbs of water to make weight and you're 15 years old. This is a very sick thing.

One of the reasons I'm so disgusted with LA is that the guy is dishonest in just about every aspect of his life, and will ruin people to keep his secret. He's a very ruthless guy.

At any rate, at my stage of life, I'm only competing against myself. I'm 43, but can still ride a bit, and people run into me and want me to race and all that. I've been there and done that with the competitive side. What, I'm going to compete to be 5,628th in the world? What's the point?

The authors of Game of Shadows, gave Barry Bonds the last word in their highly condemnatory book.

Bonds said, you want to talk about cheating? If somebody pays $60 for a ticket, and I'm not in the line up, who's getting cheated? Not me.

"You want to define cheating in America? When they make a shirt in Korea for a dollar fifty and sell it here for $500."

I'm riding my bike because I enjoy it, and that is worlds away from people who do it to make a living. That's fine, but what rubbed me the wrong way was Armstrong holding himself up as a beacon of moral courage and using this lie for gigantic profits and other advantages. Look at the way he characterized his marriage in his first book. It was a nice story at the time as were his initial TdF victories. Then the truth came out. The guy's life is the exact opposite of his representations.....
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,736 Posts
lookrider said:
I'm riding my bike because I enjoy it, and that is worlds away from people who do it to make a living. That's fine, but what rubbed me the wrong way was Armstrong holding himself up as a beacon of moral courage and using this lie for gigantic profits and other advantages. Look at the way he characterized his marriage in his first book. It was a nice story at the time as were his initial TdF victories. Then the truth came out. The guy's life is the exact opposite of his representations.....
I am with you on this. I love to ride (and row, my main sport). It is the hypocrisy that drives me crazy. Maybe it is impossible to win a grand tour without being "jacked". But please, don't hold yourself out as 'clean' when you are not. Maybe everyone does dope (but the deluded optimistic in me keeps saying, "no, I think he is clean"). Fine. Just don't say 'doping is evil' when you are running back to your hotel room and injecting yourself with this or that PED.
 
1 - 20 of 64 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top