Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm a retired elite cyclist and now I'm coaching some young elite cyclists. My question is regarding Floyd Landis. I'm a believer in Landis aerodynamic position but my opinion is base on visual rather than physic fact. This year he improved position by placing his elbow little closer together alowing the air to slice around him. To set an example, Landis style is very similar to Super G skier. If the skier expose his chest the air will drag the skier. If the cyclist expose his chest, don't you think there's similar affect will occur to the cyclist like the skier? I have some wind tunnel experience that taught me a lot. I've spoken to to few coaches and got their adviced but interested in your experience imputs. Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
Old skool...

I'm not so sure it's his elbows being closer as it is his hands raised that deflects the air around his chest. This is an old style (early '90s) position.... don't know why they changed to having the forearms more flat, but I'm sure I read in these forums that it was due to riders having back problems... to the extent that the old position is now banned. Which then begs the question is his postion legal? Anyone?
 

·
For president!
Joined
·
7,802 Posts
I also think his position is superior. It's close to the old and now outlawed "superman position" which has a similar effect in reducing chest exposure.

I don't know how effective it would be with younger cyclists though. Floyd has honed his ability to sit so far forward on the saddle, giving him a very steep effective seat angle, which allows him to drop his upper body that close to the handlebars. Check out this photo from yesterday's TT.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california063/tourca_s3_0686_N

Silas
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
The old superman position (or the ealier fully tucked position) seems to aim at making the torso and arms one integrated piece aerodynamically.

However Floyd's arms seem to create more turbulance around the arms. Now if you could add a fairing around the arms that would be a different matter.

I suppose some numbers in the wind tunnel will be most useful.

<img src=https://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july24/images/score05.jpg>
<img src=https://www.ufsm.br/gepec/obree.jpg>
 

·
Do not touch the trim.
Joined
·
2,381 Posts
Colorider-X said:
I'm a retired elite cyclist and now I'm coaching some young elite cyclists. My question is regarding Floyd Landis. I'm a believer in Landis aerodynamic position but my opinion is base on visual rather than physic fact. This year he improved position by placing his elbow little closer together alowing the air to slice around him. To set an example, Landis style is very similar to Super G skier. If the skier expose his chest the air will drag the skier. If the cyclist expose his chest, don't you think there's similar affect will occur to the cyclist like the skier? I have some wind tunnel experience that taught me a lot. I've spoken to to few coaches and got their adviced but interested in your experience imputs. Thanks in advance.
I guess the litmus test will be how many guys are using that position by the time the TT worlds roll around. I can guarantee there are people experimenting as we speak.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,302 Posts
SilasCL said:
I also think his position is superior. It's close to the old and now outlawed "superman position" which has a similar effect in reducing chest exposure.

I don't know how effective it would be with younger cyclists though. Floyd has honed his ability to sit so far forward on the saddle, giving him a very steep effective seat angle, which allows him to drop his upper body that close to the handlebars. Check out this photo from yesterday's TT.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california063/tourca_s3_0686_N

Silas

I heard that Floyd had just finished wind tunnel tests only recently and I'm sure the position came of those trials. I think it's an interesting change but might be one that works for Floyd and maybe not so many others. There's always the trade off of aerodynamics and the rider's ability to breathe and develop power in those positions. But I noticed Floyd squirming a few times while I was watching this morning. Might not be so comfortable for him either. His elbows are really closed in. That's got to make control even more difficult. Looked like his equipment needs tweaking as well. The bladed flats of his bars are basically 45 degrees - that can't be ideal.

Still it seems to work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
SilasCL Floyd has honed his ability to sit so far forward on the saddle said:
I agree which is why I'm studying his position. During my wind tunnel experience, we never experimented this position. I can't afford the wind tunnel which is another reason why I'm asking here. Look how far foward he is. His head is above the front hub
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,348 Posts
Colorider-X said:
I agree which is why I'm studying his position. During my wind tunnel experience, we never experimented this position. I can't afford the wind tunnel which is another reason why I'm asking here. Look how far foward he is. His head is above the front hub
I've heard of some guys who made their own wind tunnel in a hallway using a fan and dry ice. I know it sure isn't scientific, and I don't know whether you could actually tell by sight whether drag is reduced, but it sounds like a neat project. Dry ice is toxic though, so maybe some other smoke creator should be used.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
608 Posts
euro-trash said:
Dry ice is toxic though, so maybe some other smoke creator should be used.
It is? I had better stop breathing now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,364 Posts
Here's a quote from Josh at Zipp, http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=726722;search_string=search_string;guest=6686589#726722

"I was just in the wind tunnel with him last week, and we were determined to get those bars flat, but for whatever reason this just works for him. I have to say that in the last 6 years I've been to like 20 tunnel tests of both pro and amateur athletes, roadies and triathletes, and this is the only time I've ever seen a bar position like this work for anybody. ..."

I think two important points are 1) just because the position works for Landis (subject to all the UCI constraints), there's no reason to think it will work for someone else, and 2) that it took a look at the actual drag data to show that position works for him. You often can't tell by examining pictures if one position is better or worse than another.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
Seminar by PowerTap...

I attended a winter seminar by the PowerTap guys. They were telling about what Flyod was doing last year. Basically, Floyd and his trainer would go on a route they knew, crank it out at his power level, then check his time. Or something like that. I mean, they didn't have a huge budget, but Floyd got a position he liked.

Well, he's got a bigger budget now, so obviously they are going to check it out. Looks like the new position passed the tunnel test- it sure passed the real world test.

Go Floyd!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
I'm seem to remember Jan Ulrich being responsible for the current phase of down arm positioning after he beat Lance in the TT at the 2003 Tour. Then even Armstrong gravitated towards it. Never made sense to me being an expert at drafting :D .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Under ACrookedSky said:
It is? I had better stop breathing now.
Dry Ice is toxic if it reaches a concentration above 5%. It is frozen carbon dioxide.. I mean it could kill you via asphyxiation i guess but a 5% level would be hard to achieve, especially given that you would be using a fan to move it past a subject.
linky
2ndlinky
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Maybe the 45° angle of his bars creates lift which then causes the front wheel to have less rolling resistance! One thing is for sure it looks goofy. :confused:
 
G

·
mrt10x said:
Dry Ice is toxic if it reaches a concentration above 5%. It is frozen carbon dioxide.. I mean it could kill you via asphyxiation i guess but a 5% level would be hard to achieve, especially given that you would be using a fan to move it past a subject.
linky
2ndlinky
Hmm, 5% seems too low to be toxic - I'd believe it if it were carbon monoxide.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Doesn't it mostly come down to frontal exposed surface area? Floyd's position seems to have a lot of area exposed with the arms. Check out Dave Z's position. Arms straight, back straight, he has the best aero position in my opinion. It seems to pay off too.

Whether you are far forward, or behind the front axel shouldn't matter much as far as drag goes. It is more of a comfort & breathing thing to me. I like further forward because it opens my diaphram up for easier breathing, and plus further forward helps with my lack of flexability.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,834 Posts
grampy bone said:
Doesn't it mostly come down to frontal exposed surface area? Floyd's position seems to have a lot of area exposed with the arms. Check out Dave Z's position. Arms straight, back straight, he has the best aero position in my opinion. It seems to pay off too.

Whether you are far forward, or behind the front axel shouldn't matter much as far as drag goes. It is more of a comfort & breathing thing to me. I like further forward because it opens my diaphram up for easier breathing, and plus further forward helps with my lack of flexability.





Here we have landis and DZ, personally, landis looks faster, His chest, and part of his head is sheilded by his hands, where as DZ's position is much more wide open.

As for the sitting forward, etc, from what I understand it allows the rider to assume a position closer to the one they normally ride and train in, on a standard bike, as their TT bikes have to meet the UCI regs. Note that both DZ and Landis do this.
 

·
Roadbikereview Editor
Steelman Eurocross bike
Joined
·
2,972 Posts
Here's my comments from the peanut gallery:

- Landis' TT win is earth-shaking. I don't think anyone expected him to win. His TT position was generally considered as a mere oddity. No one else used it, not even his team mates. Now, it will be studied, copied and used.

- Landis used this position in TDF 2005 with good results. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/?id=tour051/cycling-tdf2005-itt-land-55) It seems that in Tour of Ca, he has refined it a bit by putting his elbows closer together and pointing his arms higher.

- In a recent interview, Landis said that many doubted his TT positition. He went to the wind tunnel and verified that his position is superior.

- There are three things to note about Landis position. His arms are pointed upwards. His elbows are close together. He sits very forward on the saddle and his torso is very far forward on the bike.

- Zabriskie is perhaps the finest TT rider in the world today. Floyd was behind Zabriskie's pace after the initial climb (20-30 seconds). In the flat roads, which is Zabriskie's strength, Landis blew him away. Landis blew everyone away.

- Landis theories have been confirmed and his position will now be copied. However, his position will take time to get used to. It could take months or years to get used to the three key points mentioned above. Locking the elbows together can constrict breathing and can make the bike difficult to control.

So these are my snide comments. Feel free to correct inaccuracies.

Floyd is a good man. He's all dash, no flash. Down with Lance for treating Floyd like dirt last year.

francois
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
I think we also have to figure in the time of the year. Some of the riders in this race plan on peaking in July (yeah, Landis too!). Having said that, I don't feel that Dave Z held back at all in the TT, he was just not in top form. Its a long season and there is a lot of time for people to get into form.

I really like Landis and think it would be hilarious if there are a bunch of people who show up in July with his TT position.
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top