Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi

Does anybody recall when the last classic or major stage race was won by a rider using DT shifters? I've searched high and low on the web and haven't really found a whole bunch of information. I remember Miguel Indurain trouncing STI equipped riders in the early '90s, but that's all I can recall.

I heard some young riders (they were about 27 or 28) make the contentious comment that a DT equipped rider could never compete against a brifter equipped rider...

Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,474 Posts
Sean Kelly won the 1992 Milan-San Remo on a downtube-shifter bike. Given that he was one of the last pros to give up downtube shifters and toeclips, my guess would be that the 92 Milan-San Remo was the last classic won on downtubes.

Having raced with downtube shifters, I can tell you that in many final sprint situations, STI would have a decided advantage. With downtube shifters, you committed to a gear, jumped out of the saddle and went for it. If you were over- or undergeared, too bad. But to say that a DT-equipped rider could never compete against a STI rider leaves out cunning, experience, strength and speed - unless you stipulate "everything else being equal."
 

·
Unlabeled
Joined
·
3,720 Posts
Nice thread concept

Shojii said:
Hi

Does anybody recall when the last classic or major stage race was won by a rider using DT shifters? I've searched high and low on the web and haven't really found a whole bunch of information. I remember Miguel Indurain trouncing STI equipped riders in the early '90s, but that's all I can recall.

I heard some young riders (they were about 27 or 28) make the contentious comment that a DT equipped rider could never compete against a brifter equipped rider...

Cheers.
When was the last classic stage race won on a lugged steel bike?
 
G

·
What on earth does the placement of the shifters, or even whether or not its lugged have to do with winning races.

At the pro level, the riders are basically advertising billboards and they will use whatever the team suppliers tell them to use.

If Shimano and CAmpy had gone to integrated brake/shifters by that point then that is what the riders were using in the races.

It is the rider that wins the race and the fact that the suppliers were making brifters has no effect.

Jan Ullrich, Armstrong or Riis could have won a TdF with dt shifters or brifters. On a 3000 km race the effect of one over the other would be nil.

as to lugged steel frames, the reason they are less visible is that they do not lend themselves to mass production robot welding techniques and the beginning of the '90's corresponds to the rise of the "corporate" bike builder empires, and similarly the rise of mass produced robot welded frames.
 

·
On your left!
Joined
·
1,299 Posts
absolutely right...

toomanybikes said:
What on earth does the placement of the shifters, or even whether or not its lugged have to do with winning races.

At the pro level, the riders are basically advertising billboards and they will use whatever the team suppliers tell them to use.

If Shimano and CAmpy had gone to integrated brake/shifters by that point then that is what the riders were using in the races.

It is the rider that wins the race and the fact that the suppliers were making brifters has no effect.

Jan Ullrich, Armstrong or Riis could have won a TdF with dt shifters or brifters. On a 3000 km race the effect of one over the other would be nil.

as to lugged steel frames, the reason they are less visible is that they do not lend themselves to mass production robot welding techniques and the beginning of the '90's corresponds to the rise of the "corporate" bike builder empires, and similarly the rise of mass produced robot welded frames.

But I think the question is more like, who would have won, an experienced Merckx with Brifters or an experienced Merckx with DT's.

All hypothetical stuff...Just something to pass away the day, not to make an earth shattering revelation.

So, if Merckx and Armstrong lined up together (both being at their same peak age), one on a Reynolds 831 steel frame with HJ lugs and Armstrong on a Columbus MX Leader, and Jupiter aligns with Mars and peace coming to our planet...Who would be on the leader board after the first 10 stages of (pick any year) TdF??
 

·
merckxman
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
Possibly, Dede Barry 2002 World Cup in Montreal

This is probably one of the last, if not last, important race won on a steel lugged bike. A "Mariposa" built by Mike Barry of Toronto. It is also beautiful.
 

·
On your left!
Joined
·
1,299 Posts
I'd ride it...

merckxman said:
This is probably one of the last, if not last, important race won on a steel lugged bike. A "Mariposa" built by Mike Barry of Toronto. It is also beautiful.

Is that an appropriate response in this forum?? :D :D
 
G

·
merckxman said:
This is probably one of the last, if not last, important race won on a steel lugged bike. A "Mariposa" built by Mike Barry of Toronto. It is also beautiful.

Amazing how nice a bike father in law can build - eh?

I enquired of Mike about getting a bike built, lead time now is almost two years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
toomanybikes said:
Jan Ullrich, Armstrong or Riis could have won a TdF with dt shifters or brifters. On a 3000 km race the effect of one over the other would be nil.
Really?

I'm having a hard time believing that.

I've racked up as many miles with DT shifters as most riders my age (43). I rode brifters for 3 or 4 years (till the damnable things up and broke) and my general impression of them was, "boy, I sure do shift more often with these things".

So, with DT shifters, I adapted and learned to push or spin a gear over a broader range of rpms. I bet I'm not alone. Sort of like a small step towards a fixed gear bike. Wiith brifters, I found I rode one rpm much of the time and constantly adjusted my gears.

And then there was the fast and accurate shifting in traffic that brifters afforded.

I'm not a competitive racer but I would have to think that brifters provide a noticable performance benefit to racers. If for no other reason than young racers raised on brifters would have a hard time shifting (ahem) to DTs just to shave a few grams. I don't see it.

Let me put it another way.... In a world where doping is supposedly rampant and training and eating regimes are taken to extremes and winning is put at such a huge cost, I have a hard time thinking that teams would use anything other than the tool that would give them the advantage. Brifters work better for racers makes more sense to me than marketing pressure as an explaination.

For the record, I've got SunTour friction barends on one bike and Shimano indexed barcons on the other.

Now... as to why the whole world doesn't use barend shifters, now that's something I could get behind. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
seriously now ..

merckxman said:
This is probably one of the last, if not last, important race won on a steel lugged bike. A "Mariposa" built by Mike Barry of Toronto. It is also beautiful.
In 1997 the TVM team rode steel (653?), lugged, Gazelle's. If they won any major races, which is not unlikely (Blijlevens, Hamburger, van Petegem, Skibby, Capiot), that could be the last one on lugged steel.

Edit: Blijlevens won a stage in the TdF that year.
Edit 2: Van Petegem won Het Volk in 97.
 

·
"It's alive!"
Joined
·
1,454 Posts
pinnah said:
Really?

I'm having a hard time believing that.
I'm with you. Brifters allow a rider to pedal more efficiently. To my way of thinking, subbing brifters for DT shifters would be more of an advantage than, say, trimming 1 lb of a bike in a hilly race or decreasing aero drag by 10% in a time trial which required a lot of shifting.

'Course, I don't have any numbers to back up my ridiculous assertions.

- FBB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,859 Posts
merckxman said:
This is probably one of the last, if not last, important race won on a steel lugged bike. A "Mariposa" built by Mike Barry of Toronto. It is also beautiful.
And indeed it appears to have Campagnolo Centaur (or lower level) components. Imagine - winning a big race with out the latest and greatest whiz bang equipment! Does this mean it's the rider, not the bike? No, that can't be possible - the salesman at the bike shop told me that if I bought a bike just like Lance's, I'd be able to ride like Lance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
I've seen that bike before....it has such a nice old school elegance to it, maybe the paint job adds that feeling, but it's very cool.

brewster
 

·
Not Banned
Joined
·
49,013 Posts
not lugged but Steel

Vitalicio Seguros were riding either Steel or AL Olmos (rider had choice) up to 1999. Some members of CSC were riding Steel Cervelo Super Prodigys up until about a year ago in the classics
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
kpcw said:
Agreed. One hundred percent.

I think the OP is just askin' a question that points out your answer. We see these carbon fiber twiggy machines now, it is good to remember the history as to when we saw DT shifters last, lugged steel etc. It is, imo, great to remember that bikes were in some ways, quite different just 10 years ago and yet, they really weren't that different at all.

I cannot answer the OP's question, when DT shifters won a stage last? I also cannot recall the last rider with a lugged, steel frame.

Then again, I know these elements very well...all I have to do is hop on my Pogliaghi or Merckx Corsa to know ;) Steel, lugged with DT shifters? Love em' and give me 36 spokes too!

Thanks for the responses. The best answer I can come up with is: 1993/Tony Rominger/Vuelta a Espana

I asked this question because I was interested not in a hypothetical 'what if Lance/Jan/whoever used DTs today?', but more from the perspective of whether there were any significant performance differences between the 2 shifting formats during the transition period when STI/ergo was slowly displacing DT shifters in the pro peloton.
It's a given that 'all other things being equal', STI/ergo will provide a competitive advantage to any rider; I just wasn't convinced that integrated shifting is the 'silver bullet' most younger STI/ergo era riders believe that it is. The fact that DT riders were still competitive when racing against STI/ergo riders just lends good factual support to my position. After all it's quite pointless arguing from emotion alone...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,302 Posts
they got a retro mountain bike race around Kernville (wofford hts) CA every year (Keyesville Classic may be the name but I'm not sure). One category is for bikes/parts 20 years and older. No shocks allowed. They should do the same for road bikes. Downtubes/non-aero levers/toe clips or you can't race. And only 6 speed or 5 speed freewheels. Last item Bell V1 pro helmet or older. No modern shoes either, only old school detto, duiggi, etc.All components and frame must be at least 20 years old, more like 22. benotto tape preferred
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Last Classic win on dt's

Shojii said:
Thanks for the responses. The best answer I can come up with is: 1993/Tony Rominger/Vuelta a Espana

I asked this question because I was interested not in a hypothetical 'what if Lance/Jan/whoever used DTs today?', but more from the perspective of whether there were any significant performance differences between the 2 shifting formats during the transition period when STI/ergo was slowly displacing DT shifters in the pro peloton.
It's a given that 'all other things being equal', STI/ergo will provide a competitive advantage to any rider; I just wasn't convinced that integrated shifting is the 'silver bullet' most younger STI/ergo era riders believe that it is. The fact that DT riders were still competitive when racing against STI/ergo riders just lends good factual support to my position. After all it's quite pointless arguing from emotion alone...
In spring 1994 Giorgio Furlan won Milan-San Remo. He was part of the (in)famous Gewiss-Ballan team. Famous because of that incredible Fleche Wallon that year, where Berzin, Argentin and Furlan just rode away from the rest. That picture stuck in my mind: Berzin and Argentin with Ergo's, Furlan with dt's. In retrospect, EPO had more to do with it than Ergo's or dt's!
Anyway, Furlan won the Milan-San Remo with dt's; they were all riding De Rosa Titanio's, so no lugged steel there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
t5rguy said:
In spring 1994 Giorgio Furlan won Milan-San Remo. He was part of the (in)famous Gewiss-Ballan team. Famous because of that incredible Fleche Wallon that year, where Berzin, Argentin and Furlan just rode away from the rest. That picture stuck in my mind: Berzin and Argentin with Ergo's, Furlan with dt's. In retrospect, EPO had more to do with it than Ergo's or dt's!
Anyway, Furlan won the Milan-San Remo with dt's; they were all riding De Rosa Titanio's, so no lugged steel there.
Awesome! Long live DTs!
 

·
Unlabeled
Joined
·
3,720 Posts
Retro race

Friction_Shifter said:
they got a retro mountain bike race around Kernville (wofford hts) CA every year (Keyesville Classic may be the name but I'm not sure). One category is for bikes/parts 20 years and older. No shocks allowed. They should do the same for road bikes. Downtubes/non-aero levers/toe clips or you can't race. And only 6 speed or 5 speed freewheels. Last item Bell V1 pro helmet or older. No modern shoes either, only old school detto, duiggi, etc.All components and frame must be at least 20 years old, more like 22. benotto tape preferred
And no frigging radios and cycle-computers. My pet peeve about road racing is the communication and electronic pacing. "The break-away has a 2 minute and 36 second lead. Maintain a pace of 44 kilometers per hour and you will catch them 3 kilometers before the finish"--This BS has ruined the strategy and drama of road racing!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
They should do the same for road bikes. Downtubes/non-aero levers/toe clips or you can't race. And only 6 speed or 5 speed freewheels. Last item Bell V1 pro helmet or older. No modern shoes either said:
So it would like a "dress up" race, right. But I would rather wear a cotton Campy cap and risk cracking my head open over being seen in a Bell V1.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top