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It seems like almost all off you are adults....make up your own mind.
ok, that was funny! (i'm assuming you were being TIC)

regardless, i have nothing against you. just thought you were being a bit unreasonable with your expectations from lynskey. sorry you had that happen to your frame. truly, i am. good luck getting it resolved.
 

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I am the OP and I believe I have truthful.I could not remember 100% that the Zipp 404 Firecrest were sold by Lynskey or just pictured on their website.I emailed Lynskey that I was almost sure they were,which was ignored.I'll probably just ride narrow rims,I don't like Lawyers or trouble.
Doug, we hold nothing but the highest regard for you and do know that you have loved your bike since you bought it from us. I think if everybody will take a minute (well, it is a rather long article therefore reserve about 10 minutes to read the whole thing) to read this Slowtwitch synopsis of the evolution of the Zipp traditional V-shape 404 to the now only option available 404 Firecrest, you will understand better the conflict with tight chain stays and this new design.

Zipp Firecrest 404s are the new 808s - Slowtwitch.com

When you purchased your bike in February of 2011, all our racing geometry road frames were designed and built, as they had been since our young company's inception, with "a-symmetric" chain stays in order to increase BB stiffness and thereby enhance power transfer efficiency. Until this year, our line of race bikes have been designed to run up to a 23c tire and this has been clearly stated on anything published by Lynskey.

Beginning with model year 2012, we now build all our road bikes using a symmetric chain stay design, meaning that both drive and non drive stays are ovalized vertically. This, in reaction to more racers choosing to run a 25c tire and the now wider profile of racing wheels like the Firecrest series from Zipp, is a great solution to consumer requests and race bike design evolution. To say that the 2010 and 2011 Helix OS and R440 were of faulty design would be like saying Apple needed only to introduce the iPhone 1st generation, and since there now is an iPhone 5, anyone who has ever owned a previous year model is owed the new one maybe because Siri has burst onto the scene ??? (a joke people)

Therefore, after numerous conversations attempting to help you understand why tire rub from a 25c tire and wider than V-shape new wheel design wasn't a frame manufacturer's defect warranty issue, only to have you threaten to turn this over to your lawyer friend, a calm and calculated decision to end the conversation was made. The 404s that we sold on our website in February of 2011 were the standard 404 clinchers, not the Firecrest design still in development.

There is really no blame on either side, Doug wants his bike to work well with new technology wheels. When the bike he purchased was designed and built, these wheels weren't even available. We saw a need and modified a design that had served racing cyclists well for 15 or more years. Things change, things get better, companies like us try to stay up with trends in their industry. Let's go ride.
 

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After reading this thread I am sure many potential Lynskey customers have decided to move on to another builder.
Are we getting the WHOLE truth from the OP?
Why has Lynskey not given their side of the story?
I am not attacking either party!
Seriously? "Horrible mess"? I'd say that Lynskey's side of the story is their published warranty statement. What exactly did they do wrong? Were I in the market for TI, they'd be the first I would call. Or, their excellent local dealer that's been working with them (successfully) for years.

Jamming a wheel that doesn't fit into the frame and then riding it for (how many miles?) with somehow not noticing the problem doesn't seem like their fault to me.
 

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Aside from all this I think a little more clearance wouldn't go amiss on some frames.
When you can't run a 25 mm tyre, that is tight.
 

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This entire conversation is stupid.

As a three time Lynskey Owner (2010 Sportive, 2011 R230, and 2011 CooperCX), I have found the company and its employees to be extremely accommodating each and every time I work with them pre and post sales. Yes, you can think they are just trying to sell me more bikes, but at some point I am not going to need any more so I see their support as an amazing part of the experience of being in the "Lynskey Family".

Just this week I traded in my CooperCx for a Sportive Disc. My guess is they made about $10 on the deal but getting me on the right frame and the right size was really important to them.

Why would you think Lynskey would respond once you threatened legal action?

Rather than email, did you ever think to call them and speak to to them? email is one of the worst forms of communication because it is not fluid like a phone call.

Do you know that most for-profit companies must save all of their emails in case they ever face litigation. By mentioning legal action (speaking to your friend) in an email you probably forced them into not only saving your emails but I am sure they had to stop communicating with you.

Also, why would anyone think that a company is going to communicate with you via a message board? Conversations on these boards get nasty really fast.

Why not look through all of the amazing reviews of this company and its products on this board?

I am sorry but it seems you did this to yourself.

As to others who "would never buy from Lynskey", my guess is you were not going to in the first place so it does not really matter.

This entire thread just irritates me because I have had a much different experience with Lynskey and I know they always do right by their customers.

I have a running joke with Lynskey that I will probably never purchase another fork from them....and they do not even make the forks they supply but have always stood by them:
- When I received my R230 the Easton EC70 fork was damaged....they sent me a new one - no questions asked.
- When the Cane Creek headset would not install on my R230...they told me to send it back and they would send me another one or just refund my money. I did not want to wait until a new one arrived so I had my LBS install a King headset and took a refund from Lynskey.
- When my CooperCX arrived the steel fork was not drilled for a fender as pictured on the website. They sent a new drilled fork....it had scratches (hairline surface stuff that no normal person would care about and would have been worse after my first ride) so they sent a new one. The third one came and it had a dimple in one of the fork legs. After much debate, I decided to agree with them that the dimple was there to give more clearance for the rotor....did they get mad? Did they get irritated for the time they spent trying to show me this dimple was a design element and not something that happened in shipping? No, they sent me a t-shirt and said thanks for being a good sport about the situation...even though most of it was my lack of knowledge because it was my first disc brake bike.


I am also very involved with the 25c thing. Check their facebook page or call Don @ Lynskey and he will tell you how many forks I tried that could not fit a 25c Michelin Lithion tire. I sent him a great deal of pictures showing the clearance issue was with the forks and not with the R230 (I purchased with my own money and tested more than 5 forks). Only later did I find out that the Lithion runs big - was it their fault or mine? What is interesting is that they said it was customers like me requesting more clearance that had them make the change. More importantly, why would Lynskey think a HelixOS would need a 25c...it's a race bike which is made very clear on their website. Wider rims like the A23 by Velocity which makes a 23c sit on the rim like a 25c came out after the HelixOS so how can you expect it or other similar wider rims and wheels to work?


If I were you, I would call them, explain why you wanted to talk to your lawyer friend, and maybe something good will come out of this....or maybe not, but know that they cannot possibly be responsible for another manufacturers product that might be malfunctioning or not meant for their product...caveat emptor!
 

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I assume this responsive post (#43) is from Lynskey. Correct?

Doug, we hold nothing but the highest regard for you and do know that you have loved your bike since you bought it from us. I think if everybody will take a minute (well, it is a rather long article therefore reserve about 10 minutes to read the whole thing) to read this Slowtwitch synopsis of the evolution of the Zipp traditional V-shape 404 to the now only option available 404 Firecrest, you will understand better the conflict with tight chain stays and this new design.

Zipp Firecrest 404s are the new 808s - Slowtwitch.com

When you purchased your bike in February of 2011, all our racing geometry road frames were designed and built, as they had been since our young company's inception, with "a-symmetric" chain stays in order to increase BB stiffness and thereby enhance power transfer efficiency. Until this year, our line of race bikes have been designed to run up to a 23c tire and this has been clearly stated on anything published by Lynskey.

Beginning with model year 2012, we now build all our road bikes using a symmetric chain stay design, meaning that both drive and non drive stays are ovalized vertically. This, in reaction to more racers choosing to run a 25c tire and the now wider profile of racing wheels like the Firecrest series from Zipp, is a great solution to consumer requests and race bike design evolution. To say that the 2010 and 2011 Helix OS and R440 were of faulty design would be like saying Apple needed only to introduce the iPhone 1st generation, and since there now is an iPhone 5, anyone who has ever owned a previous year model is owed the new one maybe because Siri has burst onto the scene ??? (a joke people)

Therefore, after numerous conversations attempting to help you understand why tire rub from a 25c tire and wider than V-shape new wheel design wasn't a frame manufacturer's defect warranty issue, only to have you threaten to turn this over to your lawyer friend, a calm and calculated decision to end the conversation was made. The 404s that we sold on our website in February of 2011 were the standard 404 clinchers, not the Firecrest design still in development.

There is really no blame on either side, Doug wants his bike to work well with new technology wheels. When the bike he purchased was designed and built, these wheels weren't even available. We saw a need and modified a design that had served racing cyclists well for 15 or more years. Things change, things get better, companies like us try to stay up with trends in their industry. Let's go ride.
 

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I couldn't understand why subsequent posts missed yours. I thought you did a good job of addressing the issues raised and that it was a wise thing to do. As an attorney, I think that legal threats are sometimes the worst way to try to resolve issues.
 

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I couldn't understand why subsequent posts missed yours. I thought you did a good job of addressing the issues raised and that it was a wise thing to do.
thank you. Never want anyone to think we hide from conversations about our bikes, whether on forums or thru our normal channels on the website or phone. We do our best to stay on top of trends and new product introductions, and make adjustments to meet customer expectations as quickly and completely as we can. enjoy whatever you ride.

Don Erwin
 

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This entire conversation is stupid.

As a three time Lynskey Owner (2010 Sportive, 2011 R230, and 2011 CooperCX), I have found the company and its employees to be extremely accommodating each and every time I work with them pre and post sales. Yes, you can think they are just trying to sell me more bikes, but at some point I am not going to need any more so I see their support as an amazing part of the experience of being in the "Lynskey Family".

!
I frequent other cycling forums besides this one, and your reply in regards to Lynskey being an amazing experience ECHO's...echo's the responses I've read from other owners, in fact I've never read a negative report which is rare in today's world.

If I had the extra cash to buy a Lynskey Cooper similarly equipped as a Motobecane TI Team I would do that without thinking about it.

Like I mentioned before when Lynskey was in control of Litespeed they too had an excellent reputation, I even a knew a lady who owned a Blade that ripped at the water bottle boss and Litespeed, under the direction of Lynskey at the time, replaced the frame no questions asked. The new Blade she's had for many years without any more issues, we never found out what caused it other then some sort of manufacturing issue, we thought the tube may have been milled to thin at the boss area, and Litespeed nor Lysnkey mills the tubes, they buy the tubes then their cut to make a frame.
 

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In the midst of so many ABG warranty fiascos, both on this forum and others that I've seen, I just had to give Lynskey a little publicity for their warranty service.

The paint on the head tube badge on my 2009 R330 is starting to peel very slightly. I emailed them and the next day I received an email telling me a new badge was on the way.

David
I suppose I should make a comment - Most Ti builders are small builders and they cannot afford "great warranty service" and you'll get a fight for anything outside of something unarguably their fault. This is why I choose not to do business with small builders no matter how much respect I might have for their products. If you buy their products just be ready to have long waiting periods and possible arguments about causes and exact problems. On the other hand - have a problem with a Trek and POOF you have a new one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I suppose I should make a comment - Most Ti builders are small builders and they cannot afford "great warranty service" and you'll get a fight for anything outside of something unarguably their fault. This is why I choose not to do business with small builders no matter how much respect I might have for their products. If you buy their products just be ready to have long waiting periods and possible arguments about causes and exact problems. On the other hand - have a problem with a Trek and POOF you have a new one.
That's great IF you want a Trek. Last I checked Trek doesn't produce or sell titanium frames.
 

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I suppose I should make a comment - Most Ti builders are small builders and they cannot afford "great warranty service" and you'll get a fight for anything outside of something unarguably their fault. This is why I choose not to do business with small builders no matter how much respect I might have for their products. If you buy their products just be ready to have long waiting periods and possible arguments about causes and exact problems. On the other hand - have a problem with a Trek and POOF you have a new one.
POOF did you say? A friend of mine had a problem with a CF frame cracking and Trek said it wasn't covered due to normal wear and tear which is excluded from their warranty; his bike was 5 or 6 years old; this is similar to what happened to be with another company after 14 months and 8,000 miles my Scandium frame cracked, they got out their warranty too by saying it was fatigue.

If a company can get out of the warranty they'll get out of it, just read their warranties and you'll see what's covered and not covered.
 

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That's great IF you want a Trek. Last I checked Trek doesn't produce or sell titanium frames.
There is a very good reason for that. On the whole carbon fiber is a much better material. Properly made it is much longer lived, lighter and far more easy to design "the perfect bike". My Emonda and Madone are the closest thing to perfect as I've owned in 40 years or more of riding. I was NOT impressed with my Colnago Bititan or another titanium Colnago that had an oversize downtube to try and keep the damn thing from flexing all over the place and failed.

I don't wish to knock small time builders because many people are quite satisfied with their products. People like Lynsky in particular are very well respected. But you notice that our friend that started this string never came back to describe how everything was resolved. I would bet that it was more a communications error and a bike shop that wasn't very good.
 

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There is a very good reason for that. On the whole carbon fiber is a much better material. Properly made it is much longer lived, lighter and far more easy to design "the perfect bike". My Emonda and Madone are the closest thing to perfect as I've owned in 40 years or more of riding. I was NOT impressed with my Colnago Bititan or another titanium Colnago that had an oversize downtube to try and keep the damn thing from flexing all over the place and failed.

I don't wish to knock small time builders because many people are quite satisfied with their products. People like Lynsky in particular are very well respected. But you notice that our friend that started this string never came back to describe how everything was resolved. I would bet that it was more a communications error and a bike shop that wasn't very good.
I disagree that CF lasts the longest, we still have steel bikes that are over 100 years old still around, Sheldon Brown use to commute everyday on a 1918 Ranger (if I recall the year and make correctly) for years; we have tons of steel bikes from the 40's on up still kicking around just fine, you let me know how that turns out with CF...of course you and I are going be dead before either one us can prove the other wrong...LOL! But I know one professional bike mechanic where I live who's been doing bike mechanics for over 30 years, and he's seen a lot more failed CF bike frames than he ever saw of any other material, he won't buy a CF bike, and he works for a shop that sells them! That's all I'm going to say about it with you or anyone else, and there is a lot more I can say about it, but I don't want to get into a pissing war here, Road Bike Review doesn't need that happening.

I haven't climbed mountains for 20 years so I lost my mountain legs, in addition to age, all I can tell you is that I can't get my lowend Lynskey Peloton to flex in a matter that is noticeable to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
We could argue this all day long and then some....and in the end we'll agree to disagree.

"On the whole carbon fiber is a much better material." Says who? And I'm sorry but the word "better" is subjective and only relevant to the person that said it. Your better may not be my better.

My 2009 Lynskey R331 has 68,900+ miles and is still going strong after 10 years. It IS NOT flexy and I think "better" than any plastic bike I've ever ridden, in my 40 years of riding.

But the bike that I'm really waiting for is my new custom Chris Bishop. Oh but then you don't like "small time builders" so you wouldn't be interested in a new steel bike, made to order in a fast road geometry with room for 30's.

I. Can't. Wait.

So no plastic, I mean carbon fiber for me thank you very much. I'll take hand made metal any and every day of the week.
 

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We could argue this all day long and then some....and in the end we'll agree to disagree.

"On the whole carbon fiber is a much better material." Says who? And I'm sorry but the word "better" is subjective and only relevant to the person that said it. Your better may not be my better.

My 2009 Lynskey R331 has 68,900+ miles and is still going strong after 10 years. It IS NOT flexy and I think "better" than any plastic bike I've ever ridden, in my 40 years of riding.

But the bike that I'm really waiting for is my new custom Chris Bishop. Oh but then you don't like "small time builders" so you wouldn't be interested in a new steel bike, made to order in a fast road geometry with room for 30's.

I. Can't. Wait.

So no plastic, I mean carbon fiber for me thank you very much. I'll take hand made metal any and every day of the week.
I test rode at least a dozen different CF bikes including the Specialized one that had the Zertz inserts, the Specialized was indeed the most comfortable of all the CF bikes I rode, but 2 friends of mine had TI bikes, one was a low end Motobecane, and the other was a high end Serotta, both felt superior to any of the CF bikes in comfort. Both the Moto and the Serotta had what I thought were noodly CF forks which is the second reason I went with the Enve 2.0 fork, and my friend with the Moto last year switched his fork to a Enve 2.0 and is totally happy with how the front end feels now; the other guy had his Serotta for awhile and liked how his CF fork felt.

That is a problem with TI bikes is that you have to use a CF fork, but it's the main reason I went with the 2.0 because while the 1.0 was a bit lighter it held a 224 pound rider, the 3.0 was good for 350 pounds, and even though I weigh 170 pounds I wanted to make sure the fork was over engineered for my weight which in turn would be more reliable over the long haul, I guess I'll find out. I also opted for a Cane Creek 110 headset because it supposedly supports the steerer tube better, not sure if that's true but I thought why not?
 

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I disagree that CF lasts the longest, we still have steel bikes that are over 100 years old still around, Sheldon Brown use to commute everyday on a 1918 Ranger (if I recall the year and make correctly) for years; we have tons of steel bikes from the 40's on up still kicking around just fine, you let me know how that turns out with CF...of course you and I are going be dead before either one us can prove the other wrong...LOL! But I know one professional bike mechanic where I live who's been doing bike mechanics for over 30 years, and he's seen a lot more failed CF bike frames than he ever saw of any other material, he won't buy a CF bike, and he works for a shop that sells them! That's all I'm going to say about it with you or anyone else, and there is a lot more I can say about it, but I don't want to get into a pissing war here, Road Bike Review doesn't need that happening.

I haven't climbed mountains for 20 years so I lost my mountain legs, in addition to age, all I can tell you is that I can't get my lowend Lynskey Peloton to flex in a matter that is noticeable to me.
Because there are old steel bikes doesn't mean that carbon fiber isn't longer lived properly made.

I absolutely agree that there are very few places in which you can flex any bike enough to be disturbing but there are several places around here. And it isn't a welcome thing to have the bike doing 40+ mph and have the steering grow light.
 
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