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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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ilan said:
And then there are all the non dopers who aren't in the Tour because of unfair ASO or UCI practices: Contador, Leipheimer, Petacchi, Mayo, Horner,....

-ilan

hmm...I wouldn't include Petacchi or Mayo on that list, as they were both sacked by their teams for doping scandals. Had nothing to do with ASO or the UCI.
 

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Racer C said:
Why at 37 years of age? Because old habits die hard. Beltran was quite active in the hey day of doping, i.e., when EPO was rampant, but there was no test for it yet.
Not only that, but at 37 yrs. of age, he's not exactly a hot commodity for a team to want to sign. He's trying to stay in the game as long as he can since life after cycling may not be as lucrative for him (I don't know enough of his background to know that for certain). Riding cleanly might reduce his performance level to the point that he loses out on a contract in favor of a younger rider of similar ability who has potential to improve.

Also, if he's used EPO since it's introduction to the peloton, perhaps he has grown either physiologically or psychologically dependent on it?

At his age, why not dope? His career is likely over if he gets caught (as he just did), or his career is likely over if he races clean and can't ride worth a damn at his age. I don't condone doping at all, but I can see why he would do it.
 

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Racer C said:
hmm...I wouldn't include Petacchi or Mayo on that list, as they were both sacked by their teams for doping scandals. Had nothing to do with ASO or the UCI.
Well let's take Mayo, because that case is clear cut. His B sample came inconsistent in Belgium then negative in Australia (or was it the other way around), so he was totally cleared by the Spanish federation, then the UCI asked for it to be tested again in France (which I believe is also against the rules, B sample must be tested elsewhere) and that was the only one of three B samples which tested positive. He's still suspended pending a CAS arbitration. If that's not unfair, I'm not sure what is.

The Petacchi case also defies common sense, though it seems everyone did follow the letter of the regulations.

-ilan
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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ilan said:
I forgot Boonen.

-ilan
Out of curiosity, aside from the doping issue, because it's obvious that Boonen's coke positive was fro recreational uses, do you think it is truly unfair that Boonen was banned from the Tour? What I mean is, I think it's fair that the Tour organizers can ban someone for scrupulous behavior. For example, if someone is caught drunk driving right before the Tour or convicted of domestic assault right before the Tour, shouldn't the organizers have the right to ban someone who might further tarnish the already fragile image of the race? Or are you of the notion that recreational drug use isn't that big a deal? Personally, I don't think recreational drug use is all that big a deal, but I think the Tour has their rights. However, the Astana ban was bullsh*t
 

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Racer C said:
Out of curiosity, aside from the doping issue, because it's obvious that Boonen's coke positive was fro recreational uses, do you think it is truly unfair that Boonen was banned from the Tour? What I mean is, I think it's fair that the Tour organizers can ban someone for scrupulous behavior. For example, if someone is caught drunk driving right before the Tour or convicted of domestic assault right before the Tour, shouldn't the organizers have the right to ban someone who might further tarnish the already fragile image of the race? Or are you of the notion that recreational drug use isn't that big a deal? Personally, I don't think recreational drug use is all that big a deal, but I think the Tour has their rights. However, the Astana ban was bullsh*t
Yes, I think it's unfair. The "fair" system (the quotes are there because it was also very far from perfect) was the one run by the UCI in which organizers could not ban riders or teams for reasons which they made up themselves without any accountability. It's true that ASO could essentially do this in the past, but it was only in the case of Wild Card teams that were not guaranteed entry by UCI rules (and even before the Pro Tour, the top rated 15 teams were guaranteed entry, which would mean that Astana should have participated even without reference to a Pro Tour). Moreover, the reason given by ASO to ban Boonen, that a sportsman must have irreproachable behavior in all his activities, runs against all French principles of work ethic in which private life never interferes with professional life. I could cite the illegitimate daughter of a French president which just added to his popularity, and in France US presidents like Kennedy and Clinton are national heroes because of their indiscretions.

Despite all its many faults, the UCI, in principle, represents the interests of all and has some form of accountability. The only accountability ASO has is to make itself more money. In my opinion, the whole thing went to hell when the UCI gave in to ASO with respect to Unibet, believing ASO's lie that they would look favorably on their participation in last year's Tour. Since then teams and riders have lost many of their rights guaranteed by the UCI, with respect to ASO races.

I'm moderately hopeful because it is clear that some French race organizers seem to agree with me. In particular, the Dauphine Libere made a point to invite only UCI teams, so much so that they excluded Agritubel and defending champion Christophe Moreau. Organiser Charly Mottet wrote a pretty critical article in the newspaper Le Dauphine Libere about the Tour last Saturday, saying that Spain and the US would probably always consider the result to be tainted due to the exclusion of their respective top riders. I was in the Savoie region last week, it's a pretty good newspaper actually, a nice change from pretentious bicycling hating papers like Le Monde :).

-ilan
 

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Bea Arthur's Army of Evil
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ilan said:
Despite all its many faults, the UCI represents the interests of all (in principle) and has some form of accountability. The only accountability ASO has is to make itself more money. In my opinion, the whole thing went to hell when the UCI gave in to ASO with respect to Unibet, believing ASO's lie that they would look favorably on their participation in last year's Tour. Since then teams and riders have lost many of their rights guaranteed by the UCI, with respect to ASO races.


-ilan
+1 to the Unibet fiasco. I see your point in that the general arbitrariness of the exclusion rules cause all hell to break loose. So, to refine me earlier post, it should have been up to QuickStep to leave him off the Tour team, not ASO.
 

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Racer C said:
+1 to the Unibet fiasco. I see your point in that the general arbitrariness of the exclusion rules cause all hell to break loose. So, to refine me earlier post, it should have been up to QuickStep to leave him off the Tour team, not ASO.
Yes, QuickStep correctly did this in the end, though it would have surely won a court case against ASO for the reason I cited, because it had to preserve his sanity as he was rapidly going down the Pantani road.

-ilan
 

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ilan said:
And then there are all the non dopers who aren't in the Tour because of unfair ASO or UCI practices: Contador, Leipheimer, Petacchi, Mayo, Horner,....

-ilan
I don't think I would bet the farm on the cleanliness of any of the riders mentioned above... Oh, my prediction for a future "suspicious" or outright positive rider: Yaroslav Popovych.
 

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Yeah, Beltran's doping to keep on with his pro career is pathetic, but ...to say 'He's old now..pathetic and no longer a good bike rider' that's a bit harsh. Sure, he is too old now to be 'chosen' and paid big money to ride his bike as a full time job in a world class field of riders, but he weren't no slouch..Stupid, yes. Pathetic? yes. But a poor bike rider? Probably not, compared to 99.999% of the rest of us who try to ride bikes at anywhere close to his level.
Don Hanson
 

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yes it is fair

Racer C said:
Out of curiosity, aside from the doping issue, because it's obvious that Boonen's coke positive was fro recreational uses, do you think it is truly unfair that Boonen was banned from the Tour? What I mean is, I think it's fair that the Tour organizers can ban someone for scrupulous behavior. For example, if someone is caught drunk driving right before the Tour or convicted of domestic assault right before the Tour, shouldn't the organizers have the right to ban someone who might further tarnish the already fragile image of the race? Or are you of the notion that recreational drug use isn't that big a deal? Personally, I don't think recreational drug use is all that big a deal, but I think the Tour has their rights. However, the Astana ban was bullsh*t

otherwise riders would start to skirt the recreational /PED boundry

"no that stimulant wasn't for racing, I was celebrating"

riders already abuse the 'medical exceptions' rules\

yes Astana was BS, why did Cofidis and Liquigas get invited?
 

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atpjunkie said:
otherwise riders would start to skirt the recreational /PED boundry

"no that stimulant wasn't for racing, I was celebrating"
There is no uncertainty in the boundary between in competition testing and out of competition testing. It's as simple as looking at a calendar and being able to count. Only outsiders put the label "recreational use" on things.

You also seem to misunderstand the TUE process. A rider has to request the TUE from a licensed physician and then it has to be approved by the relevant national ADA. A rider is not a medical professional and so could not be in the position of knowing when a TUE is or is not justified. If you have a problem with the number of TUE's granted, look to the authorities granting them not the riders making the request.
 
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