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titanium junkie
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Wondering anybody has a Ti Moots made 6 years old and older as well as a "modern" Moots that is made in the last 3 years or so that you can compare their welds? I have had 2 older Moots and from a little I have seen, newer Moots just do not have the same fine weld beads like before? Two of the best Ti welders in the industry Brad and Chris left Moots so I wonder if these current newer welders are able to match what these master welders used to do. Thanks!
 

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True, new welds are not as good, but only slightly. Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.
 

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titanium junkie
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Discussion Starter #3
True, new welds are not as good, but only slightly. Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.
Hey appreciate the response. Damm, with the DT 1.5 mm off center, it is certainly not acceptable in my book, especially a RSL since it costs so much. I was thinking in terms of the beauty of the welds for this subject. They used to have some very fine and consistent overlapping beads but nowadays, those beads seem to be croaser and inconsisent in some areas. Again, I have not seen a newer one in peson so I am judging this mostly from pictures I have seen online. I have been thinking about getting another Moots but hate to be disappointed after owning some of the best welded Ti frames in the industry. Oh well perhaps, Eriksen would be my next choice since Chris is his welder now. Thanks!
 

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True, new welds are not as good, but only slightly. Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.
Really?

I'm curious to know what you did about this. Did you call it to their attention?

I find this astonishing and wonder how it got out the door like that. My YBB is a work of craftsmanship, albeit about 5 years old. I'm starting to toy with the idea of a Moots road bike and this is disturbing news.

Wondering what they did or said about it.
 

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Moots Vamoots CR Owner
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Also, when I received my RSL the DT was welded 1.5mm off center of the BB.
I'd also like to know what Moots had to say when you brought this to their attention. Was/is it an intentional offset, or truly a manufacturing defect? Were the seat tube and/or chain stays also offset? Was there any resolution? After all, the RSL is a $4K+ frame and it should be flawless IMO.

BTW, I have yet to find any flaw with my 2011 Moots Vamoots CR and if this is/was a manufacturing defect, it would certainly surprise me given Moots high standards.
 

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Moots built me a new frame, although they were not very happy about it. They told me that 1.5mm was within the tolerance range and would not affect the ride quality. New frame was flawless though, and rides great. I still have no beef with Moots.
 

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This is no good news, I thought Moots had tighter tolerances than that. Although I've been wanting a Moots for years, but I'm certainly not going to spend 4k on that kind of craftmanship.
 

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titanium junkie
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Discussion Starter #8
This is no good news, I thought Moots had tighter tolerances than that. Although I've been wanting a Moots for years, but I'm certainly not going to spend 4k on that kind of craftmanship.
Well even a Vamoots at 3.1k is no small amount of money, so it is to be expected that anything that comes out of Moots should be flawless. Of course, if you have never own the "best" Ti frame then you wouldn't have a baseline to compare anything to it. Nonetheless, I just have a feeling that Moots is not like it once was and hearing this story just confirms my feeling about it. I still have a VaMoots, which I am thinking about replacing it with another VaMoots with disc brakes. However, I think I am gonna hang on to it for good even after retiring it, as I don't think it will be replaceable. I am pharsing out all of my rim braked bikes with disc bikes and my VaMoots is the last one in my stable to be retired.
 

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As far as I remember, Moots states in their brochure that they are building frames with the tightest tolerances in the business. I have and have owned several frames from top of the shelf, in both steel and ti. The ti was a indyfab. I know my bikes well, and I am pretty sure none of my frames had misalignments of this magnitude, if a tube is welded 1.5mm off-center it would be quite visible.
 

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Let me put this out there, not as a defense of moots specifically but as a general observation by someone who'd prefer to invest in a really nice item and enjoy it for years. My Moots is about 4 years old. I just sold a 12 year old Serotta Ti.

Without hearing Moots' side of the story it's hard to know what is true and what is just one or two people sharing their isolated disappointment. The internet is super-efficient at spreading stories of dissatisfaction. Years, ago Moots used to participate in this forum, if I remember correctly. Shame they aren't part of the discussion now.

Is it possible their staff changed and the work is not as consistent? Yes. Is it possible one or two frames slipped through QC? Also probably "yes." There is no perfect manufacturing industry. I've yet to own a perfect anything assembled by a man, and that includes cars, bikes, furniture,motorcycles. I'm writing this as someone who sees a fingerprint on a paint job and worries that it's underneath the clear coat finish!

It's also possible they made mistakes and corrected them, as mentioned by the previous poster. If that's the case, then I think they (or any manufacturer) should not be punished. It's the frequency of mistakes that should be of concern, and we have no way of knowing that with any sort of accuracy. I bet you they track how many frames they have to "rebuild" and it would be nice to know that (from any manufacturer for that matter), but I doubt anyone would share that data.

Just something to keep in mind. I'm thinking about moving to disc brakes on a road frame and Moots is under consideration. I haven't seen anything that would change my mind, any more than hearing that some people don't like their IPad would change my mind about buying one of those.
 

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This thread is very informative, as i am considering getting a moots in the next year or two, but this info is making me re-think.:(

The 1.5 mm off center issue sounds bad, but thinking about it further it seems like a minor offset. (1.5mm=0.0590551181 inches) 1/16th of an inch=0.0625, so it was off less than 1/16th of an inch for those of us using the English system. This is equal to about the thickness of a penny.
Being the thickness of a penny off center does not seem that huge on somthing that was made by human hands and not a robot.

Poff--How exactally did you notice this???
Not trying to start a war, but i do not think i would have noticed that offset without the use of a precise scale or a set of calipers.

So with all the info in this thread would you guys still buy a moots, or find another builder for a ti bike???
 

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So with all the info in this thread would you guys still buy a moots, or find another builder for a ti bike???
I would call them and speak to them. When I bought my YBB, I called and spoke to one of their reps to confirm the information I was getting at the local dealer, mostly because I'd never dealt with the dealer before and I wanted reassurance.

Come to think of it, I also called them to refer me to their best/most active local dealer. I didn't want to deal with someone who sold one a year.

In this case, I'd call and say, "There's some rumblings that your quality is not what it was a few years ago. What can you do to reassure me that you're still making great bikes?"

I know that sounds weird but it's a good launching point to a discussion. I'd also ask for a referral to a recent local customer, to go look at something that rolled off the assembly line within the last year. I did the referral thing, if I recall correctly, when I bought my YBB. Never went to see the bike but corresponded by email.
 

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This was a great dissapointment to me, always considered Moots as a no-nonsense brand with good rep. I'm not afraid that a frame once in a while comes with a manufacturing defect, the thing that scared me was that Moots wouldn't do anything in the first place. But, some might not think this as an issue, depends on what you expect from a high-end company.
I think that 1.5mm is a error, BB is 68 and DT is 35mm, this leaves 16.5mm off BB shell on each side of the DT, 1.5/16.5=1/11
If this is true, Moots lost a potential customer this time
 

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Remember, you're reading one story by one customer about a bike you've never seen. As helpful as web forums can be, the investigation ( if you ate shopping for a bike, any bike) should not end here.

Go check out the forums at a motorcycle site. Hundreds of horror stories about all the brands. Trannies failing, oil leaks, frame cracks. You name it. It didn't stop me from buying, it just helped me know what to ask and look for when I went to the dealer.

The dealer is key, too. I'd like to think that rare defects in any vehicle are noticed during final prep before delivery. I've heard stories of a dealer sending serottas back because of wrong this or that. **** happens when building by hand. The fact the frame sells for $4k doesn't change that.
 

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On my vamoots the inside lower part of seatstay is rubbing on my chain if I used a 12-27 cassette gearing,no issues on 11-26 gears though,,is this a defect? I need your experience and opinion then I call moots after..thanks
 

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titanium junkie
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Discussion Starter #16
On my vamoots the inside lower part of seatstay is rubbing on my chain if I used a 12-27 cassette gearing,no issues on 11-26 gears though,,is this a defect? I need your experience and opinion then I call moots after..thanks
On my Moots, I have used 13-29(10 speed) and 12-29(11 speed) Campy cassettes with zero issues. It does not sound right in your case so I would definitely call to inquire about this issue.
 

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I informed Moots,,the'll check their Production department tomorrow,,i'll post the result..

On my vamoots the inside lower part of seatstay is rubbing on my chain if I used a 12-27 cassette gearing,no issues on 11-26 gears though,,is this a defect? I need your experience and opinion then I call moots after..thanks
 

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Poff, I too wonder how someone could notice an offset of 1.5mm?

Faappa, you are a fool if you let this one forum post sway you off the Moots brand. Moots is probably better off without your money. even poff said he has no beef with Moots over this. I don't know any company in the industry that wouldn't scoff at a less than 1/16in "problem" on the first call, the fact that Moots rebuilt poff's frame should sell you on their customer service alone.
 

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Moots Quality

I have a 2009 Compact, 2010 Psychlo-X, 2011 Mooto-X YBB and a Psychlo-X RSL. I just did a cursory examination of the welds and I can't tell a difference. They all look great and have that "stack of dimes" appearance for which Moots is known.

I have no idea how someone can even tell that a tube is 1.5mm off, but I guess it can be done and Moots apparently took care of the customer. In my experience, the Moots crew has been outstanding. JonC certainly does more than his fair share in answering questions on the Moots forum.

Perhaps the only "issue" with Moots is keeping up with new parts. I bought my MX YBB with the understanding that the new Shimano XTR 2x10 crankset would work. Turns out pre-October 2010 frames would not work with that crank and I actually purchased an old stock frame. Working with Moots and the shop, I did a frame swap and all is good. As components change, it is hard to ensure that they work with older frames. Moots does, however, build their frames with new technology in mind so it would seem that the only real "problem" is trying to put the latest and greatest on an older frame. My suggestion is to just call the factory when in doubt. I have been very happy with all of my interactions with Moots.

I ride Moots bikes exclusively these days. My next ride will be a Moots- probably the MX Divide!!
 

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You have quite an impressive stable cincytri. What brings you back to the brand versus trying something like IF, Seven or Serotta?
 
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