Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Discussion with hints a new features:
https://youtu.be/aXQZhHG2m0Q

Teaser video with some short clips showing a new trainer.
https://youtu.be/GdjlpGFig5Y

Looks like they are going for a wheel-off design and lots of flexibility for future communication and mounting methods. Many of those features appear to be aimed squarely at the high end Wahoo and Tacx models.

I'm curious if the current products will be discontinued, reduced in price, etc. once the new product(s) are released?

*** Updated with new info below, 05/12/2016 ***

DC Rainmaker debut:
Hands-on with new CycleOps Hammer Smart Trainer | DC Rainmaker

Cycling Weekly debut & first ride:
The most advanced turbo trainer yet? CycleOps unleashes the 'Hammer' - Cycling Weekly

CycleOps, Hammer product site:
Hammer Direct Drive Indoor Trainer - CycleOps

CycleOps, Hammer product video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns7bYeKWPx4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
As I said in my comment on one of the Youtube videos:

"I hope this new direct drive trainer has accurate power. I've just returned my second Kickr Snap as the power is way off what my power meter says. I'm now back on my reliable Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer. So if this new trainer has accurate power and works well with Trainerroad especially doing intervals then I may be interested in buying it."

I would have bought the direct drive Kickr but the high pitched whir of the belt I found very annoying. Let's hope the new Cycleops smart trainer is quiet.
 

·
Forever a Student
Joined
·
4,963 Posts
No comparison info, but I want to clear something up real quick.

I want to clear up "direct drive."

Most companies are lying, most "direct drive" trainers are NOT direct drive. As far as I understand there's only one direct drive trainer on the market.

This is a shady thing they're doing. If anyone understands motor driven appliances, they'll know what direct drive means. It means the motor is directly driving the load without any belts or chains or anything in-between. The whole point of the direct drive moniker is to establish that there's no belts or chains being used...

and the Hammer is belt driven.

The Kickr is belt driven.

The Drivo is belt driven.

The Flux is belt driven.

What "direct drive" really means in the terms of these shady companies is "wheel off." That's ALL it means, that the wheel is taken off and you attach the bike directly to the unit. Direct attachment. But like I say, most are not direct driven, they're belt driven.

I know I will not stop the industry or anyone from false advertising and representing these appliances, but you should know the truth. There's only one direct drive unit as of now, the Neo.

And in terms of accuracy, from what I hear there's two trainers clearly above the rest. The Neo and the Drivo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
I'd get a drivo but if something goes wrong i dont think I'll get good support being in the states. At least with cycleops i can send it back for repairs. The drivo looks nice but im not familiar with Elite's quality versus Cycleop's quality.
 

·
Forever a Student
Joined
·
4,963 Posts
If you can't find it cheaper, Ray (DC Rainmaker) can always get you at least 10% off on any of the units. I got a Neo from him, well through him via Clever Training shipped for $1274. Not the cheapest or whatever but overseas places wouldn't ship and it came fast and is backed up by them here stateside.

As for warranty, well yeah, Cyclops wins there. They're here and it can be taken care of here. What's the deal with Tacx or Elite? No idea. Is the new Kickr free of all of the problems of the old one? I'm not convinced. So yeah, if warranty is your main concern I can see getting the hammer. If not the Drivo is a better belt driven unit and the Neo trumps them all in pretty much every way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The "direct-drive" moniker was associated long ago with the introduction of the Lemond Revolution Trainer. IIRC, It was the first trainer to use a cassette driven resistance unit and came out around 2011. This predates the Neo and it's system by MANY years.

They are using the same "direct-drive" terminology that was established years ago to describe cassette/pulley/belt design that eliminated the wheel-on and roller drive system.

The fact that someone came along and designed a new system that eliminates the pulley & belt portion does not invalidate the prior term usage.

My point being, calling the current crop of trainer makers "shady" is silly and petty.

If anything, Tacx is responsible for coming up with a relevant term that distinguishes their design.
 

·
Forever a Student
Joined
·
4,963 Posts
The "direct-drive" moniker was associated long ago with the introduction of the Lemond Revolution Trainer. IIRC, It was the first trainer to use a cassette driven resistance unit and came out around 2011. This predates the Neo and it's system by MANY years.

They are using the same "direct-drive" terminology that was established years ago to describe cassette/pulley/belt design that eliminated the wheel-on and roller drive system.

The fact that someone came along and designed a new system that eliminates the pulley & belt portion does not invalidate the prior term usage.

My point being, calling the current crop of trainer makers "shady" is silly and petty.

If anything, Tacx is responsible for coming up with a relevant term that distinguishes their design.

Tacx making a true direct drive unit is not what invalidates the prior term usage. The prior term usage was a lie and is still a lie today.

A wheel off trainer that is belt driven is not direct drive, it never has been, it never will be, and anyone calling it such is lying to the consumer. It's that easy. It doesn't matter who started lying about their products first, it's still a lie. Now that one company is telling the truth, that doesn't pardon past or current offenders, even themselves.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Tacx making a true direct drive unit is not what invalidates the prior term usage. The prior term usage was a lie and is still a lie today.

A wheel off trainer that is belt driven is not direct drive, it never has been, it never will be, and anyone calling it such is lying to the consumer. It's that easy. It doesn't matter who started lying about their products first, it's still a lie. Now that one company is telling the truth, that doesn't pardon past or current offenders, even themselves.
LOL, "Lying" is absurd.

Edit:

I will expand on why I think this conspiracy theory is ridiculous.

Wheel-On, Roller-Driven Trainer:
This design holds the bike at the dropouts. It compresses a roller against the rear tire. The roller is usually connected via a shaft to a resistance unit.

This type of unit is subject to use/misuse based on tire condition, tire pressure, and roller pressure against the tire. It can lead to inconsistent results when comparing wheel speed from workout to workout if all the variables listed above are not controlled consistently. One major problem besides the inconsistencies of pressure, is the possibility of tire slipping under hard efforts.

Wheel-Off, Cassette-Driven Trainer (aka Direct-Drive):
This design holds the bike at the dropouts via an integrated axle. It has a cassette mounted to the axle. That axle drives a cogged pulley, to segmented belt, to another cogged pulley that is mounted to a shaft, with a resistance unit on that shaft.

The REAL reason this is call Direct-Drive is that the components all force a "direct" connection that is not allowed to slip in any way. The segmented setup will NOT SLIP and it is also much more consistent since there is nearly no variability from various pressures as with a wheel-on trainer.

The specific number and type of components is not the issue, the ability to directly drive the components is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
I think we are getting off topic. Belt driven, direct drive. Whatever they want to call it. There are two types. Wheel on and wheel off.

So...
Hammer versus KICKR2

Hammer
- will let me attach my 12x148 thru-axle mountain bike with some future proofing.
- Heavier flywheel means better road feel?
-1st gen model might have issues
-not familiar with their firmware/software team's ability to produce quality product
- how fast do they respond with firmware fixes

KICKR2
-quieter?
-grandfather of smart trainers
-better swift compatability?
-2nd gen model
-a better known brand, maybe resale value might be better
-slightly more accurate
 

·
Forever a Student
Joined
·
4,963 Posts
We're going to have to disagree.

If you bought a direct drive washing machine, but it was, in fact, a belt driven washing machine, how would you feel? You can't buy a belt driven "direct drive" washing machine because they don't exist, the direct drive units are directly driven, no belts.

And no, wheel off and wheel on are not the two categories. Wheel off is not direct drive. The Neo and the Kickr/Drivo/Hammer/Flux/etc. are not the same thing, the Neo doesn't have a flywheel, it's a direct drive unit, not even close to the same thing. Is a top loading washing machine that's belt driven and front loading direct drive washing machine the same thing? No.

This has nothing to do with Zwift cheating either, you can cheat with any machine, just in different ways.

You should compare the Drivo to the Hammer if anything, the Drivo is a much better unit than the Kickr in every way that I can see. Not sure why anyone would want to buy a Kickr now a days outside of price or brand association or whatever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Hammer
- will let me attach my 12x148 thru-axle mountain bike with some future proofing.
This is very true. The Hammer is the only wheel-off trainer to support 148mm spacing right now. Additionally, their whole thru-axle system is cleaner than any offered by the KICKR, Drivo or Neo. Those offer conversions that still use a standard skewer as part of the setup, not the actual bikes axle like the Hammer does.

- Heavier flywheel means better road feel
Heavier is only one part of the equation. How fast it spins is the other. It is possible to get similar inertia feel with a smaller flywheel if you spin it faster.

-1st gen model might have issues
Is this speculation or do you know of something specific?
The only issues I have seen is the 120 second spin before spin-down calibration and some ERG issues. Both are claimed to be fixed (20 second spin before calibration) in an upcoming firmware update. They are apparently running tests on it before releasing it in the near future.

-not familiar with their firmware/software team's ability to produce quality product
- how fast do they respond with firmware fixes
See above.

KICKR2
-quieter?
Sound Test: (note, the are similar in volume, but the Hammer is a lower pitch that is reportedly less annoying.
https://youtu.be/GnZtXpY7Jv8

Complete review:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/12/cycleops-hammer-trainer-review.html

-grandfather of smart trainers
Not by a long shot. That honor goes to RacerMate and the Computrainer. Followed closely by CycleOps with their unit prior to the PowerBeam Pro (I can't remember it's name). Wahoo and the KICKR are new to the scene as of 2012 and those above are early 2000's.

-better swift compatability?
Not likely. CycleOps are well aware of the focus on Zwift and have made it work quite well in resistance response rate, max resistance, and road feel.

-2nd gen model
Also no guarantee of perfection. Wahoo had to do a firmware update within weeks of release because of immediate problems reported by users.


-a better known brand, maybe resale value might be better
Wahoo is actually "new" to the smart trainer market. As noted above, CycleOps has been in business longer, sold electronically controlled trainers longer, and sells more trainers (smart and dumb combined) than any other trainer maker.

-slightly more accurate
Based on claimed accuracy tolerance via the manufacturer, yes.
Based on testing via DCR, no. They are very similar.

As he summarizes in his review, DCR says they are extremely closely matched and the differences are very minute.

I also like the Drivo and Neo.

But with the quality issues shown in the Neo and Flux releases, I have questions about Tacx's quality controls. They seem to be willing to fix the problems, but the fact that they seem to have so many at the initial release of a product scares me from them. The "downhill" function and "road feel" are cool features, but I am not sure they justify the premium over the other trainers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
I'm avoiding Drivo only because I'm in the US and they are in Europe and I'm concerned with the lack of support as experienced with the Tacx Flux. Otherwise I might lean towards the Drivo. Or just spend the extra money and get the Neo but the experience with the FLux left a bad taste in my mouth so I'm trying to avoid Tacx products.
In terms of direct drive or not, I'm too stupid to know the difference. As a dumb consumer, I just want a good experience on ZWift and the product be reliable with a good support who is responsive in rolling out new firmware fixes to enhance that experience. I'm not a pro. I just want to ride for fun when it's dark or cold outside or if I ate one too many tubs of ice cream!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm avoiding Drivo only because I'm in the US and they are in Europe and I'm concerned with the lack of support as experienced with the Tacx Flux. Otherwise I might lean towards the Drivo. Or just spend the extra money and get the Neo but the experience with the FLux left a bad taste in my mouth so I'm trying to avoid Tacx products.
In terms of direct drive or not, I'm too stupid to know the difference. As a dumb consumer, I just want a good experience on ZWift and the product be reliable with a good support who is responsive in rolling out new firmware fixes to enhance that experience. I'm not a pro. I just want to ride for fun when it's dark or cold outside or if I ate one too many tubs of ice cream!
Yes, keeping to US sellers is a decent choice in this arena IMHO. The likelyhood of issues is still high, sadly. The tech is still in the teething pain stage, so it is not surprising to have some need for support with any of these trainers.

CycleOps and Wahoo have great customer service in all but a few instances that I have seen.

I honestly think it comes down to color, appearance, or a simple coin flip between the Hammer and KICKR. They aren't perfect in every case, but great in nearly all, so I don't think you can go wrong with either.
 

·
I love to climb!
Joined
·
2,045 Posts
Is this speculation or do you know of something specific?
The only issues I have seen is the 120 second spin before spin-down calibration and some ERG issues. Both are claimed to be fixed (20 second spin before calibration) in an upcoming firmware update. They are apparently running tests on it before releasing it in the near future.
Will this update fix the power drops during transitions? When going downhill, when you transition to flat or uphill, the unit will register no power for several seconds, even though you are putting out power. When I called, they said it was due to the large flywheel out spinning the power meter or something like that, and that a firmware update would be coming to address the issue. But they had no ETA. (It sometimes does it when transitioning onto a hill, but less frequently for me).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I can't say that I've read anything about the fix for the power drops. Sounds like you have more info than I have seen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Have used the kickr2 3 times so far. I like it, no regrets. Works great. The drone is a little annoying but not too bad. I had to get a new saddle (power saddle) because im not use to the road position, makes my balls go numb even after tilting the seat down. The hammer looks like a great machine as well but lke someone has mentioned its really a toss up for what i need. Zwift doesnt really feel like a video game and riding indoors still sucks but the ERG mode is great. Still deciding on the best gears to stick with, so far using the big chain ring and middle gear out back to prevent cross training. I see a lot of ppl with big 5w/kg numbers and wow, they are really good. Im gonna try trainerroad for week and see which i like better. Sorry for digressing, i was excited and wanted to tell someone :)
Id like to try a neo one day to compare.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
I sold my Kickr (2 years old) and got a Hammer after they charged me $79 to replace a belt after less than 1000 miles, and charging me overnight shipping for the belt, even though it came 3 days later. The Kickr and Hammer are very similar. I'd say this; The Hammer is a lot quieter, and because of the larger flywheel, seems smoother and has a better feel. Also, it is easier to carry. Cycleops has the best customer service in the business. I had a Fluid for several years and had to send it back when it stopped working properly. They replaced it free of charge and even paid for shipping.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top