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The Goodyear are tubeless I believe and so they are damned expensive. I tried tubeless for about 3 years and returned to clinchers since tubeless tires are such a pain in the ass to mount.
 

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IMHO, tubeless just isn't worth the hassle. Any argument about a nicer ride because you can use less pressure is offset by the fact that a tubeless tire has to be more rigid. Any argument about less flats? I get less than one flat per year using tubes.
 

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IMHO, tubeless just isn't worth the hassle. Any argument about a nicer ride because you can use less pressure is offset by the fact that a tubeless tire has to be more rigid. Any argument about less flats? I get less than one flat per year using tubes.
Only the bead has to be more rigid. To tell you the truth I couldn't tell a bit of difference in the ride but while flats were less common, they were just as common as those on something like Gatorskins and they were far worse. They were a mess to repair on the road and they were an absolute pain in the ass to get on the rim. I am in the process of building a gravel bike. I'm mounting 35 mm tires on them since I picked up a new pair cheap. One of the wheels is a Bontrager clincher and the other a Bontrager tubeless "ready". The clincher just popped right on while the tubeless flatted TWO innertubes before I could get it mounted and filled. 35 mm tires should be almost a snap to mount. Instead it turned into a 1 hour long pain in the ass in which I ended up pulling a muscle in my back and haven't been able to ride for a week and it will take another couple of days for it to heal enough to be able to ride. There isn't a damn thing I like about tubeless after using them long enough to understand their pluses and minuses.
 

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IMHO, tubeless just isn't worth the hassle. Any argument about a nicer ride because you can use less pressure is offset by the fact that a tubeless tire has to be more rigid.
That's absolutely not a fact.
Tubeless tires have less rolling resistance than their equivalent tubed version. If the tire was more rigid, that wouldn't be the case.

Any argument about less flats? I get less than one flat per year using tubes.
You can't measure frequency by time. What if you ride 100mi/year?

I haven't had a single flat on tubeless tires in over 5 years.
 

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That's absolutely not a fact.
Tubeless tires have less rolling resistance than their equivalent tubed version. If the tire was more rigid, that wouldn't be the case.

You can't measure frequency by time. What if you ride 100mi/year?

I haven't had a single flat on tubeless tires in over 5 years.
The first day I installed a tubeless tire and took it out for a ride I went over a 700 foot climb, came down the other side and on the flats picked up a glass shard. It made a noise so I stopped and picked it out. I was using Orange sealant then and it made a 1/2" diameter puddle that sealed within a couple of seconds. I was sold on them. But over time I became less and less enchanted because they are so much trouble to mount and dismount and no matter which sealant you are using it was to be cleaned out and replace else you can build up the rolling resistance. Finally I just went back to clinchers and the ease of mounting and dismounting was a very welcome difference, Now, in a normal year I do 6,000 miles of riding and 200,000 feet of climbing so your case may be different. Even with the lockdown and few places to stop on a ride to refuel, I have 450 miles and 14,000 feet of climbing already. And I've been using my steel bike for most of it.
 

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Finally I just went back to clinchers and the ease of mounting and dismounting was a very welcome difference, Now, in a normal year I do 6,000 miles of riding and 200,000 feet of climbing so your case may be different. Even with the lockdown and few places to stop on a ride to refuel, I have 450 miles and 14,000 feet of climbing already. And I've been using my steel bike for most of it.
6000+ mi/yr. 350k to 400k feet climbing.
I don't find mounting/dismounting tubeless difficult. And I don't need to clean out sealant. There's very little sealant build up when I replace tires. No more than the rubber that's been worn away.
 

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Very true. 3,000 miles per year.
Well, this tells me that both you and TIG know what you're talking about. I am a large and strong man and I am forced to buy large strong levers and break even those putting a tubeless tire on. Now taking it into a bike shop I watch them with the same sorts of problems. Listening to you guys talk about mounting them like a clincher makes me wonder how you do it. I just mounted a 35 mm gravel tire on a tubeless Bontrager. This should have been a pop-on. The damn thing flatted two innertubes! And you don't have any troubles. I gave a set of Vittoria tubeless 25 mm tires to a guy that had Mavic Kyserium SL's and I couldn't mount them on the rims and he took them to a shop and they tried and couldn't.. He finally resorted to selling my friend a set of new clincher tires. And you guys don't have any troubles. What I'd like to know what you guys know that all of these people don't? Very many of these rims don't have a deep enough center well so you can't press the tire into a well to loosen up the bead over the rim.
 

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Well, this tells me that both you and TIG know what you're talking about. I am a large and strong man and I am forced to buy large strong levers and break even those putting a tubeless tire on. Now taking it into a bike shop I watch them with the same sorts of problems. Listening to you guys talk about mounting them like a clincher makes me wonder how you do it. I just mounted a 35 mm gravel tire on a tubeless Bontrager. This should have been a pop-on. The damn thing flatted two innertubes! And you don't have any troubles. I gave a set of Vittoria tubeless 25 mm tires to a guy that had Mavic Kyserium SL's and I couldn't mount them on the rims and he took them to a shop and they tried and couldn't.. He finally resorted to selling my friend a set of new clincher tires. And you guys don't have any troubles. What I'd like to know what you guys know that all of these people don't? Very many of these rims don't have a deep enough center well so you can't press the tire into a well to loosen up the bead over the rim.
It sound like you are responding to a different thread here. I'm the one who said I don't think tubeless is worth the hassle because I get less than 1 flat per 3,000 miles. I have never run tubeless and don't plant to start now.

I'm thinking you should know by now that some combinations of rims and tires are just impossible to mount and dismount. Personally, the only rim/tire combo I found impossible to deal with were WTB KOM rims with WTB Byway tires. I finally did get them mounted, but I realized that I would need to carry a heavy duty tire jack in order to dismount them as if I got a flat without that, I would be hoofing it. I ditched those tires and replaced them with Panaracer Gravel Kings. Still tight, but not impossible.

Tubeless compatible rims are here to stay. From what I can see, there are no modern rims available that aren't tubeless compatible. This makes the fit tighter. Tires however are tubeless and non-tubeless compatible. There is a trick to mounting tires on these rims and once you know that trick, mounting is fairly easy even without a tire lever - for most rim/tires combos. My guess is that you are unlucky enough to have one of those impossible rim/tire combos.
 

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It sound like you are responding to a different thread here. I'm the one who said I don't think tubeless is worth the hassle because I get less than 1 flat per 3,000 miles. I have never run tubeless and don't plant to start now.

I'm thinking you should know by now that some combinations of rims and tires are just impossible to mount and dismount. Personally, the only rim/tire combo I found impossible to deal with were WTB KOM rims with WTB Byway tires. I finally did get them mounted, but I realized that I would need to carry a heavy duty tire jack in order to dismount them as if I got a flat without that, I would be hoofing it. I ditched those tires and replaced them with Panaracer Gravel Kings. Still tight, but not impossible.

Tubeless compatible rims are here to stay. From what I can see, there are no modern rims available that aren't tubeless compatible. This makes the fit tighter. Tires however are tubeless and non-tubeless compatible. There is a trick to mounting tires on these rims and once you know that trick, mounting is fairly easy even without a tire lever - for most rim/tires combos. My guess is that you are unlucky enough to have one of those impossible rim/tire combos.
Pardon me if I mistook your comments as agreeing with TIG. I have been riding and doing all of my own work on bikes constructing most of them from framesets for 40 years. I know "the tricks" and that makes no difference if tires and rims are designed purposely to be extremely difficult to put together. When you have a tubeless rim with a narrow well, there is little way to put one side into that well all the way around if the other side cannot be lifted onto the tubeless step. That means that you cannot get sufficient room to mount the tubeless tire which is specifically designed to be very tight on the rim.

I do not believe that the majority of rims are going to be designed as tubeless. I think that this is a flash in the pan because of the troubles that even shops have mounting these things. I have sat on the side of the road on a curb and it has taken me an hour to get a tubeless tire mounted after a flat where I had to install an innertube. Who is going to put up with that? Especially in places like California where clean roads are the exception. Hell, can you even imagine some of the roads around here where they put the parking lanes outside of the bike lanes? This means that the bike lane can NEVER be swept and accumulates large piles of broken glass and other debris. This forces bike riders out into traffic lanes which used to anger many drivers until they figured out what was going on. Now they are quite polite about it.

Around here even up on mountain roads there is NO WAY of avoiding flats even with Gatorskins. It is even worse with Google Maps routing heavy trucks onto "no trucks allowed" roads and now these local delivery drivers are mostly illegals that couldn't care less about drinking a beer and throwing the bottle out on the road. On one of the local roads, a double semi came up a road in which the corners were too tight to drive around. He had to back and fill several times to get around a Redwood tree to make one turn and rubbed that bark off of the tree. But Google Maps told him that was the fastest route. In another case, that program routes an entire commuter streams of cars down farm roads and they are throwing Starbucks paraphernalia out on the road the entire distance. Not to mention the rode is BARELY wide enough for a car and a bike to pass. On one hard local climb, I drove up and cleaned out the entire garbage on the climb. I rode up it the very next day and you couldn't tell it had been cleaned at all. On another descent from Skyline, the road turns into a route to the local golf links. I cleaned that one and it took a dozen plastic bags which I hauled up to the local school which had the rollaway garbage containers. A week later when I rode that you couldn't tell a thing. Today it has old furniture and old mattresses covering the roadside, even old refrigerators and all I can do is sigh. Ain't illegal aliens fun?

All of this is to go to say that you are NOT going to stop flats. I have had a dozen non-repairable flats on tubeless tires. So you have to be able to dismount, insert a tube and remount easily enough that it doesn't put you off riding. Returning to clinchers I probably get about as many flats as I did with tubeless but the hour now takes minutes to repair.
 

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Pardon me if I mistook your comments as agreeing with TIG. I have been riding and doing all of my own work on bikes constructing most of them from framesets for 40 years. I know "the tricks" and that makes no difference if tires and rims are designed purposely to be extremely difficult to put together. When you have a tubeless rim with a narrow well, there is little way to put one side into that well all the way around if the other side cannot be lifted onto the tubeless step. That means that you cannot get sufficient room to mount the tubeless tire which is specifically designed to be very tight on the rim.

I do not believe that the majority of rims are going to be designed as tubeless. I think that this is a flash in the pan because of the troubles that even shops have mounting these things.
Right now, I challenge you to find a currently made rim that is NOT tubeless compatible. Tires are a different story. There are plenty of non-tubeless clincher tires currently made and even with these, there is still a trick to mounting them on the tubeless compatible rims - a method that wasn't necessary before tubeless compatible rims. I'm not knocking your 40 years experience, but I must say when someone brags about decades of experience, they are usually not very open to new ways of doing things. Case in point is a couple of years ago while I was helping someone change a tube, a guy with "40 years experience" took it out of my hands and proceeded to "show me up". I let him change the tube. Then he worked for a few minutes at mounting the tire and gave up in frustration. I picked it up and popped the tire into place with no levers, then handed it back to him.

Around here even up on mountain roads there is NO WAY of avoiding flats even with Gatorskins.
Gatorskins are overrated and overpriced. If you really need a bombproof tire, try the Maxxis ReFuse. Though I will warn you the ride is harsher, but hey, it's a trade-off. If your roads are that crappy, you may want to go this route. Right now, I'm running Vittoria Rubinos and get fewer than one flat every 3,000 miles - and they have a decent ride, but my roads aren't too bad.

I won't even comment on the rest of your rant and your dislike for undocumented immigrants other than to say if you don't like it, move. That may be a topic you should take over to the P.O. forum.
 

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Pardon me if I mistook your comments as agreeing with TIG. I have been riding and doing all of my own work on bikes constructing most of them from framesets for 40 years. I know "the tricks" and that makes no difference if tires and rims are designed purposely to be extremely difficult to put together. When you have a tubeless rim with a narrow well, there is little way to put one side into that well all the way around if the other side cannot be lifted onto the tubeless step. That means that you cannot get sufficient room to mount the tubeless tire which is specifically designed to be very tight on the rim.

I do not believe that the majority of rims are going to be designed as tubeless. I think that this is a flash in the pan because of the troubles that even shops have mounting these things. I have sat on the side of the road on a curb and it has taken me an hour to get a tubeless tire mounted after a flat where I had to install an innertube. Who is going to put up with that? Especially in places like California where clean roads are the exception. Hell, can you even imagine some of the roads around here where they put the parking lanes outside of the bike lanes? This means that the bike lane can NEVER be swept and accumulates large piles of broken glass and other debris. This forces bike riders out into traffic lanes which used to anger many drivers until they figured out what was going on. Now they are quite polite about it.

Around here even up on mountain roads there is NO WAY of avoiding flats even with Gatorskins. It is even worse with Google Maps routing heavy trucks onto "no trucks allowed" roads and now these local delivery drivers are mostly illegals that couldn't care less about drinking a beer and throwing the bottle out on the road. On one of the local roads, a double semi came up a road in which the corners were too tight to drive around. He had to back and fill several times to get around a Redwood tree to make one turn and rubbed that bark off of the tree. But Google Maps told him that was the fastest route. In another case, that program routes an entire commuter streams of cars down farm roads and they are throwing Starbucks paraphernalia out on the road the entire distance. Not to mention the rode is BARELY wide enough for a car and a bike to pass. On one hard local climb, I drove up and cleaned out the entire garbage on the climb. I rode up it the very next day and you couldn't tell it had been cleaned at all. On another descent from Skyline, the road turns into a route to the local golf links. I cleaned that one and it took a dozen plastic bags which I hauled up to the local school which had the rollaway garbage containers. A week later when I rode that you couldn't tell a thing. Today it has old furniture and old mattresses covering the roadside, even old refrigerators and all I can do is sigh. Ain't illegal aliens fun?

All of this is to go to say that you are NOT going to stop flats. I have had a dozen non-repairable flats on tubeless tires. So you have to be able to dismount, insert a tube and remount easily enough that it doesn't put you off riding. Returning to clinchers I probably get about as many flats as I did with tubeless but the hour now takes minutes to repair.
 

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Right now, I challenge you to find a currently made rim that is NOT tubeless compatible. Tires are a different story. There are plenty of non-tubeless clincher tires currently made and even with these, there is still a trick to mounting them on the tubeless compatible rims - a method that wasn't necessary before tubeless compatible rims. I'm not knocking your 40 years experience, but I must say when someone brags about decades of experience, they are usually not very open to new ways of doing things. Case in point is a couple of years ago while I was helping someone change a tube, a guy with "40 years experience" took it out of my hands and proceeded to "show me up". I let him change the tube. Then he worked for a few minutes at mounting the tire and gave up in frustration. I picked it up and popped the tire into place with no levers, then handed it back to him.



Gatorskins are overrated and overpriced. If you really need a bombproof tire, try the Maxxis ReFuse. Though I will warn you the ride is harsher, but hey, it's a trade-off. If your roads are that crappy, you may want to go this route. Right now, I'm running Vittoria Rubinos and get fewer than one flat every 3,000 miles - and they have a decent ride, but my roads aren't too bad.

I won't even comment on the rest of your rant and your dislike for undocumented immigrants other than to say if you don't like it, move. That may be a topic you should take over to the P.O. forum.
Gatorskins are only overrated to the extend that the protection layer is only over the traction surface and so you can get sidewall flats. Otherwise they are as bombproof as you can get. The only Maxis Re-Fuse I've ever seen is 23 mm and I ride 28's at lower pressure.
 

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Gatorskins are only overrated to the extend that the protection layer is only over the traction surface and so you can get sidewall flats. Otherwise they are as bombproof as you can get. The only Maxis Re-Fuse I've ever seen is 23 mm and I ride 28's at lower pressure.
What??? I rode 28mm Maxxis Re-Fuses for years. Google is a wonderful thing for riders with 40 years of experience too! You're welcome! (y)




 

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What??? I rode 28mm Maxxis Re-Fuses for years. Google is a wonderful thing for riders with 40 years of experience too! You're welcome! (y)




Well thanks, As soon as I use up my stock of Michelin tires I give them a try.
 

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Well thanks, As soon as I use up my stock of Michelin tires I give them a try.
Michelins! No wonder you have so much trouble mounting tires. I remember helping someone mount Michilin tires once and this was back in pre-tubeless days. I managed to get them on, but not before uttering scores of swear words.

For puncture resistance, you won't regret the Re-Fuses.
 

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Michelins! No wonder you have so much trouble mounting tires. I remember helping someone mount Michilin tires once and this was back in pre-tubeless days. I managed to get them on, but not before uttering scores of swear words.

For puncture resistance, you won't regret the Re-Fuses.
BITD, my problem with Michelins is they'd blow off the rim. That was the late 1980s.
 

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When you have a tubeless rim with a narrow well, there is little way to put one side into that well all the way around if the other side cannot be lifted onto the tubeless step. That means that you cannot get sufficient room to mount the tubeless tire which is specifically designed to be very tight on the rim.
This is a rim issue. Not a tire issue.
Rims with shallow channels are a b!tch for tubed tires as well. This is nothing new. Existed for decades.


I do not believe that the majority of rims are going to be designed as tubeless. I think that this is a flash in the pan because of the troubles that even shops have mounting these things.
lol
You're a bit late to the party. We're way beyond that.

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Every single road bike from Trek over $1000 comes with tubeless wheels. Trek only has one model, the entry level Domane with tubed wheels.

Yea sure.... Trek is gonna switch back to tubed wheels any day now. :rolleyes:
 
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